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  1. #1
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    "Achievement Gap" - One of my favorite leftist terms

    Every time I hear someone claim that they're not arguing for equality of outcome, but then they say "Achievement Gap" in the same sentence...lmao. The two are at odds with each other.

    Achievement, basically, is the output of skills + effort.

    So, any time you hear some lefty nutjob talk about "Achievement Gaps", what they're really saying is "you're more successful than I am and I'm envious, but I dont want to put the work in nor do I have the skills to get where you are."

    That's what that means.
    Disclaimer: The content posted is of my own opinion.





  2. #2
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    Re: "Achievement Gap" - One of my favorite leftist terms

    What's the old Marxist saying... "Change the language, you change the logic"...





  3. #3
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    Re: "Achievement Gap" - One of my favorite leftist terms

    Now, I do agree with Mike Rowe in that there is a noticeable skills gap in America.
    Disclaimer: The content posted is of my own opinion.





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    Re: "Achievement Gap" - One of my favorite leftist terms

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Now, I do agree with Mike Rowe in that there is a noticeable skills gap in America.
    id agree with Rowe as well, but i think thats a different topic.

    id ask what phrase do you call two people with the same skills, working the same hours and work ethic (same effort and skills), yet one being more rewarded than another (most likely financially but could be anything)?

    I think this isnt referred to as a "skill/effort gap", because when theres a gap in those its understood why the results would vary. the "achievement gap" is when those things are the same but results still vary. I think thats also a different issue than "equality of outcome", which is when somebody argues that despite different effort/skills we should end up the same. i can see how they get intertwined, but they really are different issues. rather than arguing we should all end up at the same place despite different skills/effort (equality of outcome), the argument is that if the effort and skills are the same, they should end up the same. when they dont thats an "achievement gap". Its idealistic rather than realistic, but thats the point of it, wanting to eliminate the other factors that cause the variation outside of ones own control. I dont think its untrue that two people with similar degrees, and work ethics can have completely different outcomes in that sense.

    If I use an analogy, Runner A runs a 4.2 40, runner B runs a 4.2 40. Runner C runs a 4.5 40. "Equality of outcome" is that A and B run a 40, C runs 38 yards, and they all finish at the exact same time. you give an advantage to somebody that didnt have the same skill to get the same result. "Achievement gap" is if they all run 40, A and B should tie, but they claim one the winner over the other. that shouldnt happen, because their ability is the same, but something outside their control decided a different outcome.
    -JAB





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    Re: "Achievement Gap" - One of my favorite leftist terms

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    id agree with Rowe as well, but i think thats a different topic.

    id ask what phrase do you call two people with the same skills, working the same hours and work ethic (same effort and skills), yet one being more rewarded than another (most likely financially but could be anything)?

    I think this isnt referred to as a "skill/effort gap", because when theres a gap in those its understood why the results would vary. the "achievement gap" is when those things are the same but results still vary. I think thats also a different issue than "equality of outcome", which is when somebody argues that despite different effort/skills we should end up the same. i can see how they get intertwined, but they really are different issues. rather than arguing we should all end up at the same place despite different skills/effort (equality of outcome), the argument is that if the effort and skills are the same, they should end up the same. when they dont thats an "achievement gap". Its idealistic rather than realistic, but thats the point of it, wanting to eliminate the other factors that cause the variation outside of ones own control. I dont think its untrue that two people with similar degrees, and work ethics can have completely different outcomes in that sense.

    If I use an analogy, Runner A runs a 4.2 40, runner B runs a 4.2 40. Runner C runs a 4.5 40. "Equality of outcome" is that A and B run a 40, C runs 38 yards, and they all finish at the exact same time. you give an advantage to somebody that didnt have the same skill to get the same result. "Achievement gap" is if they all run 40, A and B should tie, but they claim one the winner over the other. that shouldnt happen, because their ability is the same, but something outside their control decided a different outcome.
    Do you have an example of this hypothetical scenario?





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    Re: "Achievement Gap" - One of my favorite leftist terms

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Do you have an example of this hypothetical scenario?
    sure, Do you not? I dont consider that hypothetical, but a common occurrence.

    I have a former co-worker that had the same degree as me, from a similar school. worked hard. long hours, always made himself available (late/weekends), just like myself. same company. well liked and respected. same ability (we regularly shared). I got promoted, he didnt. he asked to be, they still didnt. he ended up leaving. he was doing the same work, giving as many hours or even more than me at times and doing all the extra little stuff i saw myself doing, he didnt get the same treatment. when i asked about it after he left, everybody said "i liked him, not sure why they didnt promote him." nobody seemed to have an answer and agreed he was deserving.

    I also know from my wife's experience at one company where a guy thats had more experience than her in the field, worked there longer, was highly respected and liked by their peers took over for her after she left and made 10k less than she was when she started. when he told them he knew what she was making, they said my wife was lying and they never paid anybody that much. He also ended up leaving because of it. similar degrees from highly regarded schools, if anything he had more traits for the position than she had (which he applied for before they hired her). She left because it wasnt for her. Id classify that as 2 people with very similar skills (or to his advantage even) and him not getting the same achievement.
    -JAB





  7. #7
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    Re: "Achievement Gap" - One of my favorite leftist terms

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    id agree with Rowe as well, but i think thats a different topic.

    id ask what phrase do you call two people with the same skills, working the same hours and work ethic (same effort and skills), yet one being more rewarded than another (most likely financially but could be anything)?

    I think this isnt referred to as a "skill/effort gap", because when theres a gap in those its understood why the results would vary. the "achievement gap" is when those things are the same but results still vary. I think thats also a different issue than "equality of outcome", which is when somebody argues that despite different effort/skills we should end up the same. i can see how they get intertwined, but they really are different issues. rather than arguing we should all end up at the same place despite different skills/effort (equality of outcome), the argument is that if the effort and skills are the same, they should end up the same. when they dont thats an "achievement gap". Its idealistic rather than realistic, but thats the point of it, wanting to eliminate the other factors that cause the variation outside of ones own control. I dont think its untrue that two people with similar degrees, and work ethics can have completely different outcomes in that sense.

    If I use an analogy, Runner A runs a 4.2 40, runner B runs a 4.2 40. Runner C runs a 4.5 40. "Equality of outcome" is that A and B run a 40, C runs 38 yards, and they all finish at the exact same time. you give an advantage to somebody that didnt have the same skill to get the same result. "Achievement gap" is if they all run 40, A and B should tie, but they claim one the winner over the other. that shouldnt happen, because their ability is the same, but something outside their control decided a different outcome.
    I dont know of many situations where two people have the exact same skills and the exact same levels of effort.
    Disclaimer: The content posted is of my own opinion.





  8. #8
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    Re: "Achievement Gap" - One of my favorite leftist terms

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    I dont know of many situations where two people have the exact same skills and the exact same levels of effort.
    that would probably be why that term doesnt make sense to you then.

    if you cant see that as a possibility even, then you disagree with the context before the concept even comes into play.
    -JAB





  9. #9

    Re: "Achievement Gap" - One of my favorite leftist terms

    Quote Originally Posted by NCRAVEN View Post
    Do you have an example of this hypothetical scenario?
    This happens all the time in the private sector, especially as it relates to seniority. But it can cut both ways.

    Example 1 - I work in transportation, so I see this all the time. 2 drivers servicing the same client. Driver 1 has been with the company for several years with good service record. Driver 2 is a new hire assigned to that same client. Driver 1 will earn more for the exact same (essentially) work as Driver 2 because he has earned either higher pay rate or additional stipend type pay based on his tenure. He may also have more paid time off. Is this somehow unfair to Driver 2?

    Example 2 - If you stay with your current employer in the private sector, your pay can and likely will be depressed. I was with a company where I was promoted 4 times in 5 years. In each case, I made less than what the person I replaced made, and my replacement made more than I had in that position. HR/Company policy will argue that you can't give a person a raise of more than x% - even if it would cost more to go to the outside and hire. Is this unfair to me? I would say yes, but maybe I could have negotiated more strongly to get more. On the final promotion I did tell my boss that at some point things had to be made even. I wound up leaving the company within a year.

    Example 3 - This one happens all the time when hiring someone new. Very few jobs have a set rate of pay. There are usually ranges. One person may negotiate a better rate than another. It won't be astronomically different. Maybe I'm hiring for two positions in the $60 - $75k range. Two equally qualified candidates both get offers, maybe $65k. Candidate 1 says yes. Candidate 2 is already making $65k and wants $70k. So they negotiate and get it. Is that somehow unfair to Candidate 1? I made a fair offer that they accepted. Now, I may be causing myself trouble in the future if the two talk and Candidate 1 feels slighted. But that's a different story.





  10. #10

    Re: "Achievement Gap" - One of my favorite leftist terms

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    id agree with Rowe as well, but i think thats a different topic.

    id ask what phrase do you call two people with the same skills, working the same hours and work ethic (same effort and skills), yet one being more rewarded than another (most likely financially but could be anything)?

    I think this isnt referred to as a "skill/effort gap", because when theres a gap in those its understood why the results would vary. the "achievement gap" is when those things are the same but results still vary. I think thats also a different issue than "equality of outcome", which is when somebody argues that despite different effort/skills we should end up the same. i can see how they get intertwined, but they really are different issues. rather than arguing we should all end up at the same place despite different skills/effort (equality of outcome), the argument is that if the effort and skills are the same, they should end up the same. when they dont thats an "achievement gap". Its idealistic rather than realistic, but thats the point of it, wanting to eliminate the other factors that cause the variation outside of ones own control. I dont think its untrue that two people with similar degrees, and work ethics can have completely different outcomes in that sense.
    I think you answer the question in the final bolded part. It is idealistic, not realistic. In the example you gave from your own work history, maybe there was only one promotion available. At the end of the day, the boss has to make a call. Maybe everything about you two was exactly the same from a work perspective. But there's one spot - maybe you had a more outgoing personality, maybe he thought you would be a better leader, maybe a lot of things. But something gave you an edge over him.





  11. #11
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    Re: "Achievement Gap" - One of my favorite leftist terms

    Quote Originally Posted by BPF2 View Post
    I think you answer the question in the final bolded part. It is idealistic, not realistic. In the example you gave from your own work history, maybe there was only one promotion available. At the end of the day, the boss has to make a call. Maybe everything about you two was exactly the same from a work perspective. But there's one spot - maybe you had a more outgoing personality, maybe he thought you would be a better leader, maybe a lot of things. But something gave you an edge over him.
    agreed. it probably was something little and clearly im so lovable, but even if it was exactly the same, even those little factors, If theres only one job available, youre right that call has to be made one way or another. The factor here is usually education in those terms, and does 2 people with similar education end up at the same level of achievement? I think everybody would agree thats not the case. theres always other factors and "achievement gap" is a real thing, but i dont think that means theres a straight answer to solving it for that reason. its a concept based on idealistic reasons instead of real world practice.
    -JAB





  12. #12
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    Re: "Achievement Gap" - One of my favorite leftist terms

    Quote Originally Posted by JAB1985 View Post
    sure, Do you not? I dont consider that hypothetical, but a common occurrence.

    I have a former co-worker that had the same degree as me, from a similar school. worked hard. long hours, always made himself available (late/weekends), just like myself. same company. well liked and respected. same ability (we regularly shared). I got promoted, he didnt. he asked to be, they still didnt. he ended up leaving. he was doing the same work, giving as many hours or even more than me at times and doing all the extra little stuff i saw myself doing, he didnt get the same treatment. when i asked about it after he left, everybody said "i liked him, not sure why they didnt promote him." nobody seemed to have an answer and agreed he was deserving.
    There are so many different factors that could be at play there. Maybe you were more professional, maybe you dressed better, maybe you were more personable with the right person? Maybe it was a coin flip?

    Also, someone that is educated, experienced, and a hard worker is going to achieve. Maybe this person didn't achieve the same as you in the same company, but to suggest that they wouldn't achieve elsewhere with the same creds and experience doesn't make sense to me (not saying you're directly saying that, btw).

    I also know from my wife's experience at one company where a guy thats had more experience than her in the field, worked there longer, was highly respected and liked by their peers took over for her after she left and made 10k less than she was when she started. when he told them he knew what she was making, they said my wife was lying and they never paid anybody that much. He also ended up leaving because of it. similar degrees from highly regarded schools, if anything he had more traits for the position than she had (which he applied for before they hired her). She left because it wasnt for her. Id classify that as 2 people with very similar skills (or to his advantage even) and him not getting the same achievement.
    ...but gender pay gap...


    ;)


    Maybe your wife negotiated a better deal than he did? That happens to, you know? It happened to me when I first left the government. I didn't ask for more salary up front and I didn't get it...and I learned from that and negotiated better when the time came.
    Disclaimer: The content posted is of my own opinion.





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