Serious Question

[Raveninwoodlawn]

A couple things here seriously.

I do not at all begrudge anyone upset about this, we all have a right to feel what we feel. If people want to not watch, God bless, we all can do without sports of all kinds if we needed to. I for instance probably would stop watching and spending my money if owners were to force players to stand or quiet them if they wanted to voice their opinions. And that's for any opinion.

The flag means a lot of different things to different people. Again, as someone who is black, has served and would absolutely serve again if the call came (as well as many other friends and family), the flag absolutely means a lot to me, I love my country. But also, people need to understand that the flag also means different things.

I listened to the radio yesterday and of course it was filled with a lot of angry people, and a lot of people defending what happened. I listened to callers (and people at work whom I have no issue discussing these things with) talk about how much they revered their ancestors who faught for this country, giving their lives...I've heard references to every war from the Civil War, to the WW's, and Vietnam. And I think they absolutely should be proud of what their grandparents and great grandparents for their sacrifices. But when talking to people at work that would bring that up, I would always acknowledge their ancestors, but I'd ask them to think of where my ancestors were at the time of these wars. Mine were slaves at the time of the Civil war. During the WW's, Jim Crow was in full effect, and my grandfather was a witness to 2 lynchings during his youth growing up in Mississippi. Vietnam was during a time when the Civil rights movement was going on. Many minorities still fought and died for this country despite discrimination and segregation.

Please don't misunderstand, I love this country, but while the flag stands for all the great things many know it stands for...it also has potential different meanings in addition to those, especially for those that want to bring up the history of this country as a reason for it's greatness...there is a lot of mistreatment to say the least as well in this great countries past.

This is not meant at all to be a "white guilt" post, but I did want to bring that up, especially since there are others who are emotionally against what's going on that they are the ones bringing up America's great past. It wasn't so great in the past for everyone is all I'm saying and while we absolute need to continue to move forward (and we absolutely have), I think it's also important that people don't stop striving to work and solve our issues. Acting like they don't exist, or blaming it on different ways to say "black people cant help themselves" (be honest, I'm sure som feel that way in this forum and I know a lot of people nationally feel that way) isn't the answer. Sometimes some are going to be uncomfortable. And people have a right to react to that as they wish as long as it's non violent. I just hope we continue to try and work on our issues. I wish our government could work together instead of constant party standoffs, both sides acting as children. Who knows if that will ever happen. Should stop us from trying though.

[blah3]

....or blaming it on different ways to say "black people cant help themselves" (be honest, I'm sure som feel that way in this forum and I know a lot of people nationally feel that way) isn't the answer.

Who is really telling the black people cant' help themselves? Do you really think people espousing all kinds of excuses as to why blacks can't succeed and they need this program to help them and that program to help them really believe blacks can be successful without their help? You're fooling yourself if you think that's the case.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

He's really telling the black people cant' help themselves? Do you really think people espousing all kinds of excuses as to why blacks can't succeed and they need this program to help them and that program to help them really believe blacks can be successful without their help? You're fooling yourself if you think that's the case.

Who's "He"? I said all that and of course that's immediately what's jumped on smh...

[blah3]

Who's "He"? I said all that and of course that's immediately what's jumped on smh...

Sorry changed it to who is? Typo dude.

[I Touchdown There]

A couple things here seriously.

I do not at all begrudge anyone upset about this, we all have a right to feel what we feel. If people want to not watch, God bless, we all can do without sports of all kinds if we needed to. I for instance probably would stop watching and spending my money if owners were to force players to stand or quiet them if they wanted to voice their opinions. And that's for any opinion.

The flag means a lot of different things to different people. Again, as someone who is black, has served and would absolutely serve again if the call came (as well as many other friends and family), the flag absolutely means a lot to me, I love my country. But also, people need to understand that the flag also means different things.

I listened to the radio yesterday and of course it was filled with a lot of angry people, and a lot of people defending what happened. I listened to callers (and people at work whom I have no issue discussing these things with) talk about how much they revered their ancestors who faught for this country, giving their lives...I've heard references to every war from the Civil War, to the WW's, and Vietnam. And I think they absolutely should be proud of what their grandparents and great grandparents for their sacrifices. But when talking to people at work that would bring that up, I would always acknowledge their ancestors, but I'd ask them to think of where my ancestors were at the time of these wars. Mine were slaves at the time of the Civil war. During the WW's, Jim Crow was in full effect, and my grandfather was a witness to 2 lynchings during his youth growing up in Mississippi. Vietnam was during a time when the Civil rights movement was going on. Many minorities still fought and died for this country despite discrimination and segregation.

Please don't misunderstand, I love this country, but while the flag stands for all the great things many know it stands for...it also has potential different meanings in addition to those, especially for those that want to bring up the history of this country as a reason for it's greatness...there is a lot of mistreatment to say the least as well in this great countries past.

This is not meant at all to be a "white guilt" post, but I did want to bring that up, especially since there are others who are emotionally against what's going on that they are the ones bringing up America's great past. It wasn't so great in the past for everyone is all I'm saying and while we absolute need to continue to move forward (and we absolutely have), I think it's also important that people don't stop striving to work and solve our issues. Acting like they don't exist, or blaming it on different ways to say "black people cant help themselves" (be honest, I'm sure som feel that way in this forum and I know a lot of people nationally feel that way) isn't the answer. Sometimes some are going to be uncomfortable. And people have a right to react to that as they wish as long as it's non violent. I just hope we continue to try and work on our issues. I wish our government could work together instead of constant party standoffs, both sides acting as children. Who knows if that will ever happen. Should stop us from trying though.

very eloquently stated. if we could all just stop and LISTEN to one another rather than rush to quick judgment, I think the world would be a better place. alas...

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Sorry changed it to who is? Typo dude.

To answer your question, there are quite a few people who feel that way, I've talked and debated with them. Please don't act like they don't exist.

FWIW, I don't agree with all the Gov handouts, many in my inner circle don't either. Or let me be more specific, I believe many of those programs are needed, but only to an extent. Things like public housing...to me, unless someone is disabled or elderly, there should be a limit on how long someone can stay in those places, it hurts my heart to see generations living there. It can be a place someone can make home for a couple years if needed to get back on their feet, but not staying there 15-20 years. Another is I think it would make a ton more sense to provide trade training for those that are on assistance for certain lengths of time rather than just indefinitely handing out money. There are many others obviously...and I don't think those are necessarily wasteful or bad programs, but there has to be some incentive to not be dependent for years and years. I think the environment many of those inner city kids grow up in has them on survival auto pilot. Take those same bad kids, move them out of those places when they are young, they turn out completely differently.

But there's more to it, my post was not some rant on how black people can't succeed...which is apparently all you took out of it. There is more to it, I absolutely believe in police reform. Things like mandatory psych evals and if necessary, therapy...there's no way these police officers who see horrendous things everyday don't get numb to some of this. Their needs for mental and emotional support are no different than those who come from military combat, except they don't do 3 years and come home. I believe in looking at the private prison system here. The drug laws. Not abolishing things, but looking at things and seeing other people's point of view on what may be fair or not. It's complicated and things need to be discussed. And the poor can't just be ignored or brushed aside, and IMHO, that's been what's happening and why you are getting some of what's been happening.

But the point of my original post was just to explain what the flag may mean to different people and why some feel so strongly and some may not...right or wrong.

[blah3]

To answer your question, there are quite a few people who feel that way, I've talked and debated with them. Please don't act like they don't exist.

FWIW, I don't agree with all the Gov handouts, many in my inner circle don't either. Or let me be more specific, I believe many of those programs are needed, but only to an extent. Things like public housing...to me, unless someone is disabled or elderly, there should be a limit on how long someone can stay in those places, it hurts my heart to see generations living there. It can be a place someone can make home for a couple years if needed to get back on their feet, but not staying there 15-20 years. Another is I think it would make a ton more sense to provide trade training for those that are on assistance for certain lengths of time rather than just indefinitely handing out money. There are many others obviously...and I don't think those are necessarily wasteful or bad programs, but there has to be some incentive to not be dependent for years and years. I think the environment many of those inner city kids grow up in has them on survival auto pilot. Take those same bad kids, move them out of those places when they are young, they turn out completely differently.

But there's more to it, my post was not some rant on how black people can't succeed...which is apparently all you took out of it. There is more to it, I absolutely believe in police reform. Things like mandatory psych evals and if necessary, therapy...there's no way these police officers who see horrendous things everyday don't get numb to some of this. Their needs for mental and emotional support are no different than those who come from military combat, except they don't do 3 years and come home. I believe in looking at the private prison system here. The drug laws. Not abolishing things, but looking at things and seeing other people's point of view on what may be fair or not. It's complicated and things need to be discussed. And the poor can't just be ignored or brushed aside, and IMHO, that's been what's happening and why you are getting some of what's been happening.

But the point of my original post was just to explain what the flag may mean to different people and why some feel so strongly and some may not...right or wrong.

I didnt' take out of your post that you don't think blacks can't succeed. I'm pointing out that it is more likely that those touting programs, blaming white privilege etc. don't believe blacks cannot succeed without their help.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

I didnt' take out of your post that you don't think blacks can't succeed. I'm pointing out that it is more likely that those touting programs, blaming white privilege etc. don't believe blacks cannot succeed without their help.

How about addressing the entirety of the post instead of making false accusations of me specifically (you said "You" multiple times in that post) based off of one line in a 5 paragraph post?

I mean this is partially why there are problems...people everywhere want to go into defense mode and make foolish assumptions without taking a second to ask questions and listen to others.

[blah3]

How about addressing the entirety of the post instead of making false accusations of me specifically (you said "You" multiple times in that post) based off of one line in a 5 paragraph post?

I mean this is partially why there are problems...people everywhere want to go into defense mode and make foolish assumptions without taking a second to ask questions and listen to others.

I didn't say you. Get over the typo. I asked who is....
So, want to continue going on about who is not listening? I flat out told you I didn't say you don't believe blacks can succeed. Flat out said it. Here is the exact quote. "I didnt' take out of your post that you don't think blacks can't succeed." And yet, you continue with that I somehow did.


But hey you want to get into the rest of your post, I will oblige. It falls right into line with people who want to undermine the country. They want to twist the US to immoral and unjust. It's to undermine the idea of American exceptionalism. America didn't' prosper because of liberty and freedom, it stole from minorities. It enslaved blacks, used up Asians. We didn't build our prosperity, we stole it. Now, can you see why that would have people upset about the flag/anthem protest? Maybe you should consider how the kneeling is divisive.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

I didn't say you. Get over the typo. I asked who is....
So, want to continue going on about who is not listening? I flat out told you I didn't say you don't believe blacks can succeed. Flat out said it. Here is the exact quote. "I didnt' take out of your post that you don't think blacks can't succeed." And yet, you continue with that I somehow did.


But hey you want to get into the rest of your post, I will oblige. It falls right into line with people who want to undermine the country. They want to twist the US to immoral and unjust. It's to undermine the idea of American exceptionalism. America didn't' prosper because of liberty and freedom, it stole from minorities. It enslaved blacks, used up Asians. We didn't build our prosperity, we stole it. Now, can you see why that would have people upset about the flag/anthem protest? Maybe you should consider how the kneeling is divisive.

Here is your quote. Verbatim.

Who is really telling the black people cant' help themselves? Do you really think people espousing all kinds of excuses as to why blacks can't succeed and they need this program to help them and that program to help them really believe blacks can be successful without their help? You're fooling yourself if you think that's the case.

I didn't refer at all to any governement programs, or white guilt, or any of what you said in your post I just quoted. Come on man, saying it was a typo is akin to saying you were hacked. It's ok, you made an assumption.

As for the rest of your post? I'm not underminiing anything. What happened happened. Nobody can change it no matter how people want to mask it under being patriotic. For a couple hundred years minorities were in fact discriminated against, enslaved and lynched. They are facts. Because they are ugly facts in our history doesn't mean they should be forgotten or ignored. I said nothing about stealing anything. Yet again, you are completely putting words in my mouth because they fit your narrative and it's one of the major reason why nobody can talk/discuss anything these days.

[blah3]

Here is your quote. Verbatim.




I didn't refer at all to any governement programs, or white guilt, or any of what you said in your post I just quoted. Come on man, saying it was a typo is akin to saying you were hacked. It's ok, you made an assumption.

As for the rest of your post? I'm not underminiing anything. What happened happened. Nobody can change it no matter how people want to mask it under being patriotic. For a couple hundred years minorities were in fact discriminated against, enslaved and lynched. They are facts. Because they are ugly facts in our history doesn't mean they should be forgotten or ignored. I said nothing about stealing anything. Yet again, you are completely putting words in my mouth because they fit your narrative and it's one of the major reason why nobody can talk/discuss anything these days.

Again with the not listening. Yet going on and on about how people aren't listening to you.
I ASKED if you believed something. Then said IF you believed that, you were fooling yourself. Now, the question was mostly rhetorical. Used to bring up and make a point that those touting how blacks need programs, and being held back because or racism, or institutional policies actually are less likely blacks can succeed.
So I'll say it again. I didn't take from your post that you didn't think blacks can't succeed. Now, I expect that you will continue to not believe that, because well, you don't want to.

[Raveninwoodlawn]

Again with the not listening. Yet going on and on about how people aren't listening to you.
I ASKED if you believed something. Then said IF you believed that, you were fooling yourself. Now, the question was mostly rhetorical. Used to bring up and make a point that those touting how blacks need programs, and being held back because or racism, or institutional policies actually are less likely blacks can succeed.
So I'll say it again. I didn't take from your post that you didn't think blacks can't succeed. Now, I expect that you will continue to not believe that, because well, you don't want to.

LOL at asking a rhetorical question and then in the same breath trying to act like you were asking me a legit question.

It's not me not listening...or are you going to tell me something else was a typo?