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  1. #49

    Re: Barstool Sports: Pats and Ravens in Trade Talks re Hayden Hurst

    Quote Originally Posted by BPF2 View Post
    Keeping a talented player who you have under cheap control for 2 more years is not going all in. It's maintaining.

    I think saying Boyle is ahead of Hurst is a little disingenuous. Their stats last year are virtually identical, but they play the position very differently. I was actually really surprised to see that Boyle had 5 more YAC than Hurst, given the way they play and are targeted.

    Next year, teams are going to focus on taking Andrews and Hollywood away which should open things up for Hurst who can run multiple routes and get YAC.

    I wouldn't trade him to NE unless the offer was incredibly favorable for the Ravens, as in severely overpay. Hurst on that team last year would have changed things pretty dramatically.
    Boyle is our starting TE, who also plays the most snaps. There is nothing disingenuous about any of that. Not only is he ahead of Hurst, he is ahead of Andrews.


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  2. #50

    Re: Barstool Sports: Pats and Ravens in Trade Talks re Hayden Hurst

    Ravens offense was built in part on brilliant use of three tight ends. Hurst is an underutilized weapon who looks like a solid pick in the 20's of the first round - even at last year's level of production.

    We have no reason to trade unless we are tweaking our offense or trying to make another team pay too much.





  3. #51

    Re: Barstool Sports: Pats and Ravens in Trade Talks re Hayden Hurst

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    Boyle is our starting TE, who also plays the most snaps. There is nothing disingenuous about any of that. Not only is he ahead of Hurst, he is ahead of Andrews.


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    Hurst is a good blocking TE he's made tremendous strides being drafted. He would be most teams everydown TE he isn't here because we have a specialist in Boyle whose one of the best blocking TE's.

    That is the whole reason why he is in demand. The problem is if Andrews goes down Boyle isn't capable of filling in his role. So it sort of depends on how much you value what Boyle does, plus the extra cap space, plus what Hurst does with the added dimension he adds to the passing game. To me Hurst is more valuable and while I would rather lose neither if we were going to trade someone for me it would be Boyle.

    We can find a 3rd blocking TE a heck of a lot easier then we can find a very good starting calibre all around TE.





  4. #52

    Re: Barstool Sports: Pats and Ravens in Trade Talks re Hayden Hurst

    Full disclosure. Hurst is one of my favorite players and I have been a consistent and frequent defender of him on this board from the day he was drafted. I have even suggested here that if he played for the Pats, he would be a star. When Hurst was mentioned in the proposed trade for Jalen Ramsey, it confirmed that with the way our current offense in constructed, he is more valuable to other teams than the Ravens. I trust EDC to make a deal with value for the Ravens but I also reluctantly have to admit that I will be happy that HH will move to a team that will maximize his skills. I think the Ravens understand everything that Hurst brings to the table but our current offense causes his skill set to be wasted. I'm really interested to see how this plays out.





  5. #53

    Re: Barstool Sports: Pats and Ravens in Trade Talks re Hayden Hurst

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    Boyle is our starting TE, who also plays the most snaps. There is nothing disingenuous about any of that. Not only is he ahead of Hurst, he is ahead of Andrews.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Boyle is 80% 5th OL / 20% TE





  6. #54

    Re: Barstool Sports: Pats and Ravens in Trade Talks re Hayden Hurst

    FWIW, and Zrebiec said the same...they are not going to trade him just to trade him.

    Either a second or a third...maybe third +.

    If not, don't trade him.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.





  7. #55
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    Re: Barstool Sports: Pats and Ravens in Trade Talks re Hayden Hurst

    No way would I trade Hurst for a 3rd rounder. I don't care if that's the "correct" value or not.

    I wouldn't even trade him for a 2nd unless it's a really early one. Maybe. And not to the Patriots.

    Hurst is a proven talent. It wasn't necessarily clear early on, but he's playing at the level he was drafted: late first round. It's true that a team trading for him would only get 3 years of Hurst on a rookie deal, not 5, and that lowers his value. But all draft picks come with uncertainty. Even a first round pick has a 50% (?) chance of being an underperformer. Hurst has removed that uncertainty. We all know he can play.

    So... 3 years instead of 5, but uncertainty removed. Those balance out. Late first round talent: confirmed.

    Hurst is worth way more than a 3rd round pick. And to the Ravens with a window of Jackson's rookie deal and an AFC whose power structure is in flux to utilize (yes, even though we're having trouble getting him enough snaps) Hurst is worth more than a 2nd rounder.

    And looking to the future, if we let him play out his rookie contract and he leaves in free agency, we almost certainly get a pretty decent comp pick. So trading him now means we lose that future pick. This has to be factored in to the calculation.

    We don't need minimal cap savings. We're not under any pressure to trade Hurst. So I'm only interested if someone really wows us with a great offer. Otherwise why bother?

    I say: late first round (or equivalent) or no deal. No takers? Fine! I'm happy to keep Hurst.





  8. #56

    Re: Barstool Sports: Pats and Ravens in Trade Talks re Hayden Hurst

    Quote Originally Posted by Teavo View Post
    No way would I trade Hurst for a 3rd rounder. I don't care if that's the "correct" value or not.

    I wouldn't even trade him for a 2nd unless it's a really early one. Maybe. And not to the Patriots.

    Hurst is a proven talent. It wasn't necessarily clear early on, but he's playing at the level he was drafted: late first round. It's true that a team trading for him would only get 3 years of Hurst on a rookie deal, not 5, and that lowers his value. But all draft picks come with uncertainty. Even a first round pick has a 50% (?) chance of being an underperformer. Hurst has removed that uncertainty. We all know he can play.

    So... 3 years instead of 5, but uncertainty removed. Those balance out. Late first round talent: confirmed.

    Hurst is worth way more than a 3rd round pick. And to the Ravens with a window of Jackson's rookie deal and an AFC whose power structure is in flux to utilize (yes, even though we're having trouble getting him enough snaps) Hurst is worth more than a 2nd rounder.

    And looking to the future, if we let him play out his rookie contract and he leaves in free agency, we almost certainly get a pretty decent comp pick. So trading him now means we lose that future pick. This has to be factored in to the calculation.

    We don't need minimal cap savings. We're not under any pressure to trade Hurst. So I'm only interested if someone really wows us with a great offer. Otherwise why bother?

    I say: late first round (or equivalent) or no deal. No takers? Fine! I'm happy to keep Hurst.
    I hear you, but I think you are overvaluing him.

    He's been injured for a good part of those 2 years of experience and his production isn't that great (yeah, snaps, it should translate, but still) And then you have the off-field issue with depression that may or may not give pause to other teams.

    We were counting on a compensatory 3rd rounder for CJ and look how that one went.

    I agree we are under no pressure to trade him and I think he could be a lot more valuable for another team and that's great in terms of leverage, but a late first rounder is as good as saying we are not trading him.





  9. #57
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    Re: Barstool Sports: Pats and Ravens in Trade Talks re Hayden Hurst

    Quote Originally Posted by Valhain View Post
    I hear you, but I think you are overvaluing him.

    He's been injured for a good part of those 2 years of experience and his production isn't that great (yeah, snaps, it should translate, but still) And then you have the off-field issue with depression that may or may not give pause to other teams.

    We were counting on a compensatory 3rd rounder for CJ and look how that one went.

    I agree we are under no pressure to trade him and I think he could be a lot more valuable for another team and that's great in terms of leverage, but a late first rounder is as good as saying we are not trading him.
    Yes that's my point.

    I may well be overvaluing him from the perspective of other teams but I don't care what other teams think because:

    1. Hurst is valuable to us right now, and
    2. We're under zero pressure to trade him

    You're thinking about this the wrong way. You're coming at it with the assumption that we should trade Hurst, so then you consider how to do it.

    I reject the idea that we should trade him in the first place, so how to make it work is largely irrelevant. Again, if someone wows us with a great offer I'd take it. Anything less, I prefer to keep Hurst.





  10. #58

    Re: Barstool Sports: Pats and Ravens in Trade Talks re Hayden Hurst

    Quote Originally Posted by Teavo View Post
    No way would I trade Hurst for a 3rd rounder. I don't care if that's the "correct" value or not.

    I wouldn't even trade him for a 2nd unless it's a really early one. Maybe. And not to the Patriots.

    Hurst is a proven talent. It wasn't necessarily clear early on, but he's playing at the level he was drafted: late first round. It's true that a team trading for him would only get 3 years of Hurst on a rookie deal, not 5, and that lowers his value. But all draft picks come with uncertainty. Even a first round pick has a 50% (?) chance of being an underperformer. Hurst has removed that uncertainty. We all know he can play.

    So... 3 years instead of 5, but uncertainty removed. Those balance out. Late first round talent: confirmed.

    Hurst is worth way more than a 3rd round pick. And to the Ravens with a window of Jackson's rookie deal and an AFC whose power structure is in flux to utilize (yes, even though we're having trouble getting him enough snaps) Hurst is worth more than a 2nd rounder.

    And looking to the future, if we let him play out his rookie contract and he leaves in free agency, we almost certainly get a pretty decent comp pick. So trading him now means we lose that future pick. This has to be factored in to the calculation.

    We don't need minimal cap savings. We're not under any pressure to trade Hurst. So I'm only interested if someone really wows us with a great offer. Otherwise why bother?

    I say: late first round (or equivalent) or no deal. No takers? Fine! I'm happy to keep Hurst.
    I totally get your argument and it's a reasonable take.

    Only thing I have an exception to is the comp pick discussion...there's no guarantee that his actual numbers/play will warrant a team spending a lot of money on him, and even if they do, it's way too early to consider that because we may sign guy(s) would cancel out any comp pick he'd potentially net.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.





  11. #59
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    Re: Barstool Sports: Pats and Ravens in Trade Talks re Hayden Hurst

    Quote Originally Posted by Mark View Post
    Boyle is 80% 5th OL / 20% TE
    Boyle and Hurst had almost identical receiving stats last year. Hurst had 1 less catch 20 more yards and both caught 2 TDs. If Boyle is doing the same thing in the passing game and is a great blocker then he's a lot more valuable.





  12. #60

    Re: Barstool Sports: Pats and Ravens in Trade Talks re Hayden Hurst

    Quote Originally Posted by Teavo View Post
    Yes that's my point.

    I may well be overvaluing him from the perspective of other teams but I don't care what other teams think because:

    1. Hurst is valuable to us right now, and
    2. We're under zero pressure to trade him

    You're thinking about this the wrong way. You're coming at it with the assumption that we should trade Hurst, so then you consider how to do it.

    I reject the idea that we should trade him in the first place, so how to make it work is largely irrelevant. Again, if someone wows us with a great offer I'd take it. Anything less, I prefer to keep Hurst.
    No sorry, that's not where I come from at all. I could as well say you don't want to trade him at all and that's why you are putting a late first round tag on him so nobody comes asking and in fact you've said as much: I reject the idea that we should trade him in the first place

    I think his value for us is limited because of Andrews, Boyle and Hurst's own need to see more targets in an offense that runs a lot and also has rookie WRs that should improve next season, whereas his value for the Jags or the Pats is much higher. Therefore there is leverage and maybe an added value to trade him. If it's a second round pick, I'm doing it. It all depends on what comes our way in exchange, and that is good for every other player in the roster except maybe Stanley and Lamar.





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