Artemis

[jonboy79]

I sometimes think trying to divine meaning in life based on throwing ourselves at such complex concepts with only the rudimentary tools of our current knowledge and unaltered cognition is probably going to prove less meaningful than eating a handful of mushrooms in a safe quiet place with good friends and tripping balls.

Insert little dark-haired meme girl
“Why not both”???


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[Greg]

That one has no meaning to me personally. There is no proof this is the only universe or the only iteration of this universe. In fact, most mathematical breakdowns point to the exact opposite of that: The fine tuning just so happened to work in this particular universe and that is why we are here.
If there are infinite universes(or even a number in the ballpark of the above conundrum) there is bound to be one or more tuned in this manner.


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There is absolutely no evidence at all there is any other universe. Sure, math allows for it, but math allows that unicorns can pop into existence at any time and point in space.

For one to believe there an infinite number of universes would require also believing in an infinite number of absurdities. You missed one caveat of these infinite universes and that is that all possibilities are realized in such a model. One absurdity you would have to believe is that there is a universe with an earth like this, with humans like us, with everything the same except that a giant otter of incredible intelligence rules that world. And not only is every possible absurd universe realized in that model, but there must be an infinite number of universes of each and every kind. Once you go infinite you get all kinds of ridiculous scenarios.

But finally, if every possible universe exists then the fact that the Bible is possibly true means that one must be real as well. And the Bible teaches that God is the Creator of all things. Using this model as an escape hatch from the incredible fine-tuning of the universe, if logically played out, brings us right back to the God of the Bible being the Creator.

[Greg]

I believe reality is far more complex than humans understand. Maybe in a few hundred years science will get to the point where a lot of the unknown becomes known. But to me the complete unknowable is if in fact the big bang theory is correct and the universe was hot and compact to begin with - how was matter first created? If indeed there is a creator - who created the creator - how did or does this entity exist? If not, how did matter first come into being? If string theory is correct then we have multiple parallel universes. Our galaxy could be the tip of a pinhead to some larger universe. Maybe far in the future a theory will come to exist and be proven to be correct.

Nobody created the Creator. If you insist that the creator was created, who created the creator of the creator. This goes back to the point I made that you can't have an infinite regress of cause and effect. You could play that back an infinite amount and still end up with an infinite amount of creating creators before. There absolutely must be an uncaused cause. Aristotle called his uncaused cause the immovable mover.

An actual infinite of anything is logically absurd.

When God identified himself to Moses He said "I am that I am." He just is.

[jonboy79]

There is absolutely no evidence at all there is any other universe. Sure, math allows for it, but math allows that unicorns can pop into existence at any time and point in space.

For one to believe there an infinite number of universes would require also believing in an infinite number of absurdities. You missed one caveat of these infinite universes and that is that all possibilities are realized in such a model. One absurdity you would have to believe is that there is a universe with an earth like this, with humans like us, with everything the same except that a giant otter of incredible intelligence rules that world. And not only is every possible absurd universe realized in that model, but there must be an infinite number of universes of each and every kind. Once you go infinite you get all kinds of ridiculous scenarios.

But finally, if every possible universe exists then the fact that the Bible is possibly true means that one must be real as well. And the Bible teaches that God is the Creator of all things. Using this model as an escape hatch from the incredible fine-tuning of the universe, if logically played out, brings us right back to the God of the Bible being the Creator.

There is absolutely no evidence there isn’t.
There is absolutely no evidence rush the Big Bang is a one off occurrence.
It’s not that the math “allows for it” it requires it.

Sure, if infinite is the quantity of universes all potentials must be true.
If not infinite, but simply incomprehensibly large, that is not the case. With infinite dice rolls all combinations are simply possible, but guaranteed. There can be a finite number of dice rolls wherein one rolls snake eyes 100 times in a row:


The fine tuning argument is also a bit of a chicken and egg, or causation verse correlation. Our lack of understanding that of which we don’t know leads is to believe it must be like what we know to exist. In a simplified version of this, we only look for planets/satellites that can support liquid water because that is the only way we know to support life. It’s not unrealistic to consider that might not always be the case:

Other fine tuned conditions working in another manner may create entirely different conditions we simply can’t comprehend.


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[Greg]

There is absolutely no evidence there isn’t.

And? There is no evidence a lot things aren't true. Negative evidence is hardly of any value other than to say something is possible, even if remotely so. Lots of things are possible. I am quite sure you don't believe all of those.

There is absolutely no evidence rush the Big Bang is a one off occurrence.
It’s not that the math “allows for it” it requires it.

How does math REQUIRE there have been more than one Big Bang? And again, there is no evidence any other event like it has ever happened.

Surely you don't believe things without evidence.

Sure, if infinite is the quantity of universes all potentials must be true.
If not infinite, but simply incomprehensibly large, that is not the case. With infinite dice rolls all combinations are simply possible, but guaranteed. There can be a finite number of dice rolls wherein one rolls snake eyes 100 times in a row:

Indeed. But how many universes are needed to meet all of the fine-tuning conditions? Are the odds of these universes existing and that the incredible odds against a life permitting universe existing really better than God existing?

The fine tuning argument is also a bit of a chicken and egg, or causation verse correlation. Our lack of understanding that of which we don’t know leads is to believe it must be like what we know to exist. In a simplified version of this, we only look for planets/satellites that can support liquid water because that is the only way we know to support life. It’s not unrealistic to consider that might not always be the case:

Other fine tuned conditions working in another manner may create entirely different conditions we simply can’t comprehend.


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Well, you can imagine all kinds of stuff, but only carbon joins with other elements and makes the VAST number of molecules life like ours is based on. Models based on silicon, for example, just don't work. And carbon life, and likely all life, needs a lubricant, a liquid of some kind. Water is the one that floats when it freezes. Its solid state is actually less dense than its liquid state. If this wasn't true we wouldn't be here because lakes and oceans would freeze bottom up and likely completely freeze and kill all of the life in them.

But there are all other things a world must need to host life. It must be far enough from other stars such that the radiation doesn't damage the living cells. If our sun were close to the center of the galaxy where the stars are much closer together life wouldn't have a chance. There are all kinds of things about the earth and our solar system like this.

[jonboy79]

And? There is no evidence a lot things aren't true. Negative evidence is hardly of any value other than to say something is possible, even if remotely so. Lots of things are possible. I am quite sure you don't believe all of those.



How does math REQUIRE there have been more than one Big Bang? And again, there is no evidence any other event like it has ever happened.

Surely you don't believe things without evidence.



Indeed. But how many universes are needed to meet all of the fine-tuning conditions? Are the odds of these universes existing and that the incredible odds against a life permitting universe existing really better than God existing?




Well, you can imagine all kinds of stuff, but only carbon joins with other elements and makes the VAST number of molecules life like ours is based on. Models based on silicon, for example, just don't work. And carbon life, and likely all life, needs a lubricant, a liquid of some kind. Water is the one that floats when it freezes. Its solid state is actually less dense than its liquid state. If this wasn't true we wouldn't be here because lakes and oceans would freeze bottom up and likely completely freeze and kill all of the life in them.

But there are all other things a world must need to host life. It must be far enough from other stars such that the radiation doesn't damage the living cells. If our sun were close to the center of the galaxy where the stars are much closer together life wouldn't have a chance. There are all kinds of things about the earth and our solar system like this.

Lots of people believe many things with no evidence, this thread is clear on that.

I don’t believe it to be the case. I believe it to be one possible answer to the fine tuning, that is all. There are many possible answers and a creator is one of the better answers, about on par with some sort of many worlds phenomena:

String theory requires more than 4 dimensions. Quantum theory suggests infinite universes.

All the rest is based on our current knowledge, of which I agree, if we never learn how limited our knowledge actually is: If man has proven one thing, it’s that each and every step of the way, we had far more to learn to actually understand how things work. Newton wasn’t wrong, Einstein just added to it with more understanding. Einstein wasn’t wrong, knowledge of the quantum is simply currently adding to it.

I simply believe the statement “as we know it” must be attached to all such statements and the likelihood that the universe(s) are almost certainly not bound by rules that explain what we currently understand.


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[Greg]

Lots of people believe many things with no evidence, this thread is clear on that.

I don’t believe it to be the case. I believe it to be one possible answer to the fine tuning, that is all. There are many possible answers and a creator is one of the better answers, about on par with some sort of many worlds phenomena:

As I understand it "many worlds" is the same as multiple universes. I don't think there are many possible answers to the fine-tuning. There are three. Chance (which is what the many worlds idea is based on), necessity (I know of nobody who holds it HAS to be this way), or design. That's it. The atheist/non-theist
is stuck finding some way to get chance as viable, and the multiple universe/many worlds idea is about all there is.

String theory requires more than 4 dimensions. Quantum theory suggests infinite universes.

I believe string theory is 9 or10 minimum dimensions, but string theory (it's really an hypothesis as I see it - to be a theory I think it has to be a testable idea) does nothing to answer the fine-tuning issue. How does quantum theory suggest infinite universe. Quantum theory is simply the idea that matter and energy are quantized (meaning they came in individual packets such as light photons), and that possibly space and time are as well.

All the rest is based on our current knowledge, of which I agree, if we never learn how limited our knowledge actually is: If man has proven one thing, it’s that each and every step of the way, we had far more to learn to actually understand how things work. Newton wasn’t wrong, Einstein just added to it with more understanding. Einstein wasn’t wrong, knowledge of the quantum is simply currently adding to it.

I simply believe the statement “as we know it” must be attached to all such statements and the likelihood that the universe(s) are almost certainly not bound by rules that explain what we currently understand.

"AS we know it." YES! But we base our philosophies of life and understanding of how things work based on what we know as of right now. We all do, whether we realize it or not. Everybody has some kind of world view and philosophy, even if they don't realize it. But you can either learn and try and understand or throw your hands up and go "well, things could change tomorrow."

As for fine-tuning, we do learn more each day. And the amount of fine-tuning we see goes up and up and up as time passes and at quite incredible rates. Like the rates of computing power in the world. The trend is certainly going in one direction.

And given Occam's razor the simplest answer is there is an intelligent Creator. And the deal is He has revealed Himself into His creation and you can have an experience, a spiritual one, with Him.

And to deny the supernatural is to deny every single spiritual experience that any human being has ever had as illusion and nothing more. It is also the denial of consciousness and makes us nothing more than meat machines with no free will. And it leaves life without purpose.

Even if I am wrong I would prefer to live as though I have free will and there is some purpose to it all.

[2bynight]

An actual infinite of anything is logically absurd.

One of the most logical constructs is mathematics. Numbers march to infinity. Is that logically absurd?

[jonboy79]

As I understand it "many worlds" is the same as multiple universes. I don't think there are many possible answers to the fine-tuning. There are three. Chance (which is what the many worlds idea is based on), necessity (I know of nobody who holds it HAS to be this way), or design. That's it. The atheist/non-theist
is stuck finding some way to get chance as viable, and the multiple universe/many worlds idea is about all there is.



I believe string theory is 9 or10 minimum dimensions, but string theory (it's really an hypothesis as I see it - to be a theory I think it has to be a testable idea) does nothing to answer the fine-tuning issue. How does quantum theory suggest infinite universe. Quantum theory is simply the idea that matter and energy are quantized (meaning they came in individual packets such as light photons), and that possibly space and time are as well.



"AS we know it." YES! But we base our philosophies of life and understanding of how things work based on what we know as of right now. We all do, whether we realize it or not. Everybody has some kind of world view and philosophy, even if they don't realize it. But you can either learn and try and understand or throw your hands up and go "well, things could change tomorrow."

As for fine-tuning, we do learn more each day. And the amount of fine-tuning we see goes up and up and up as time passes and at quite incredible rates. Like the rates of computing power in the world. The trend is certainly going in one direction.

And given Occam's razor the simplest answer is there is an intelligent Creator. And the deal is He has revealed Himself into His creation and you can have an experience, a spiritual one, with Him.

And to deny the supernatural is to deny every single spiritual experience that any human being has ever had as illusion and nothing more. It is also the denial of consciousness and makes us nothing more than meat machines with no free will. And it leaves life without purpose.

Even if I am wrong I would prefer to live as though I have free will and there is some purpose to it all.

Superposition is what suggests infinite universes. As until an observer observes the action on the quantum scale it exists in both conditions. Therefore, every time there is a “decision” there becomes two dimensions, one where the decision was made in one direction, and another in the opposite direction .

The “cat” is both dead and alive, and each outcome has its own “world”. When it is observed all we determine is which world we inhabit.

I think string theory is more like 1; dimensions now, but that is kind of immaterial as we are on the same page that it’s a fine thought that we are generations at minimum away from “proving” if ever…

The more I study science and math, the more I become a deist. It just so happens to be the I caused cause that I can’t wrap my head around another possible solution, All I’m showing here is that there are other solutions to fine tuning that “I could buy” as possible: Fine tuning is just a step behind that in my book. The fact that people believe the world is flat makes me think any creator has a serious sense of humor, Rhys much is certain.

[2bynight]

I sometimes think trying to divine meaning in life based on throwing ourselves at such complex concepts with only the rudimentary tools of our current knowledge and unaltered cognition is probably going to prove less meaningful than eating a handful of mushrooms in a safe quiet place with good friends and tripping balls.

Undoubtedly true. Current knowledge cannot grasp those concept complexes. Maybe never will.

[MacMunin]

There's nobody the occult laughs at more than atheists.

There's no evidence either of anything put forth by those those sorcerers, who created the learning against learning model in the 1500's. They got caught attaching an ape Jaw to a skeleton to propagate Evolution. Big Bang has never been proven and goes against what is written in the book carried around by the one who proposed it. Gravity theory is just that. Never proven. Same with Relativity. There's been no evidence put forth that we are spinning at 1,040 miles per hour either, and NASA has never flipped the camera around to show you we are spinning, despite the supposed numerous trips into "space". Rotating around the Sun at 66,600 miles per hour and tilting at 66.6 degrees is another of their right in your face mockeries. Rotating through a Galaxy at 500,000 miles per hour and flying through a "Universe" at 2+ million miles per hour just tops off the cake of insanity. All of which we are informed as being Science falsely so called.

Sorcery is everywhere, and if people do not believe that is the case, most have spent their entire lives over paper that was created out of thin air by those magicians without thinking twice about that craziness. It is why tables were flipped over and why if you believe in a Creator, you should also believe what was written.

But don't worry, whatever your belief's are, its about to get much more fun thanks to the sorcerers. According to one of those supreme occultists, who wrote the The Externalisation of the Hierarchy, we are right about there for the main presentation. Its why the United Nations has a "2025 Preparing the Way initiative" and specifically mentions the individual who wrote Externalisation of the Hierarchy. There's a link too at the bottom of the page about "The Reappearance".

https://www.2025initiative.org/about

[jonboy79]

There's nobody the occult laughs at more than atheists.

There's no evidence either of anything put forth by those those sorcerers, who created the learning against learning model in the 1500's. They got caught attaching an ape Jaw to a skeleton to propagate Evolution. Big Bang has never been proven and goes against what is written in the book carried around by the one who proposed it. Gravity theory is just that. Never proven. Same with Relativity. There's been no evidence put forth that we are spinning at 1,040 miles per hour either, and NASA has never flipped the camera around to show you we are spinning, despite the supposed numerous trips into "space". Rotating around the Sun at 66,600 miles per hour and tilting at 66.6 degrees is another of their right in your face mockeries. Rotating through a Galaxy at 500,000 miles per hour and flying through a "Universe" at 2+ million miles per hour just tops off the cake of insanity. All of which we are informed as being Science falsely so called.

Sorcery is everywhere, and if people do not believe that is the case, most have spent their entire lives over paper that was created out of thin air by those magicians without thinking twice about that craziness. It is why tables were flipped over and why if you believe in a Creator, you should also believe what was written.

But don't worry, whatever your belief's are, its about to get much more fun thanks to the sorcerers. According to one of those supreme occultists, who wrote the The Externalisation of the Hierarchy, we are right about there for the main presentation. Its why the United Nations has a "2025 Preparing the Way initiative" and specifically mentions the individual who wrote Externalisation of the Hierarchy. There's a link too at the bottom of the page about "The Reappearance".

https://www.2025initiative.org/about

So because Math/Science suggest a creator we should believe in a book, written by a man(or many men). Yeah, ok…


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