The debate has just begun: arm strength

**Mista T** · 08-25-2006, 11:29 PM

Has McNair thrown a completion over 15 yards? Did the Ravens put him through any drills before committing to $33 million? Is this all a ploy to fool preseason opponents' scouting? Have we ever started a weaker armed QB since Harbs? Inquiring minds would like to know.

And can we save all the "preseason", "OL", and "getting to learn the offense" excuses.:grbac:

I know, I know: some NFL teams have done very well just throwing the short stuff. But this team is from Baltimore.

**F Angelos** · 08-25-2006, 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by Mista T

Has McNair thrown a completion over 15 yards? Did the Ravens put him through any drills before committing to $33 million? Is this all a ploy to fool preseason opponents' scouting? Have we ever started a weaker armed QB since Harbs? Inquiring minds would like to know.

And can we save all the "preseason", "OL", and "getting to learn the offense" excuses.:grbac:

I know, I know: some NFL teams have done very well just throwing the short stuff. But this team is from Baltimore.

I've seen McNair in practice throw 50 yds right on target more than a few times. He's got the arm strength to do it. Why there not letting him do it is beyond me.

**edreedisgod20** · 08-26-2006, 01:45 AM

It's an interesting question. First, let me start off by saying that the wonderful folks at MASN did not allow me to watch the Vikings game. That said, some stats that have slipped by:

Unless I'm mistaken, McNair is 31/40 for 273 yards in two halves + one drive of play. I know, those have all been dump off passes, right? But McNair's YPA is a very respectable 6.825. So because he's completing so many, it doesn't really matter that he hasn't gone down the field.

My conclusion, which you certainly don't have to agree with: We're seeing the ball-control offense run to perfection (well, without the touchdowns). We can run (or short pass) on first and second down to make third-and-short... and then actually convert consistently! It isn't exciting, it isn't prolific, but it can be an extremely effective offense. We have all the components for it - a stable of power backs, a smart, efficient quarterback, an offensive line that can't block for more than two seconds anyway, and a punishing defense that hasn't seen a pair of fresh legs in the fourth quarter this decade. It's hard to be excited about this team after what sounded like a typical road game tonight, but thinking back to last week's game against the Eagles still gets me really, really pumped.

**crowdog89** · 08-26-2006, 01:50 AM

Have we ever started a weaker armed QB since Harbs? Inquiring minds would like to know.

Uh...besides Harbaugh? Maybe Chris Redman....

**Mista T** · 08-26-2006, 02:01 AM

Maybe Chris Redman....

Don't think so. Redmond couldn't gun the ball, but he could at least loft it 40-50 yards downfield. The only longish pass that I've seen thrown by Steve so far was about 30 yards downfield, lofted, and 5 yards off the mark.:hammer:

Seriously, Crowdog, I am suspecting that we may have a problem here. That is: unless Fassel is intentionally hiding the long passing threat.

**crowdog89** · 08-26-2006, 02:07 AM

Like I said, everyone was jumping for joy about getting McNair....so far even though I haven't seen a game...just what I've read on the boards and seen in clips....doesn't give me much hope beyond that 8-8 we were talking about...and that's only if the Ravens win all 8 home games. It doesn't look like they have the road warrior mentality...even for the preseason.

I'm hoping they are playing bluff like in poker...if not it seems like this team is in some huge trouble. Not only is the offense the same as it ever was, but it seems like the defense is lettting up some big plays as well....and not stopping the opponet on 3rd down either.

**Drkraven** · 08-26-2006, 02:09 AM

Uh Kyle Boller is God?*duck*
I truly don't know what to think. Boller is poised in the pocket, making reads and looking like a big boy QB, BUT he is playing against the second string D. Boller looks like a real QB, I started thinking that after the Vikes game last year, then we played the Browns. Maybe that flight yesterday still had everyone rattled. I'm not sure why I TIVOed that game because I'm quite sure no one wants to see it, including me.

**JonG316** · 08-26-2006, 02:10 AM

I've thought his arm strength was lacking since the first day of training camp, I even commented about it to someone. However if you watch the pass he threw to Clayton that drew the pass interference penelty he has a lot of zip on that ball, easily the most powerful ball I've seen him throw since coming here.

I'm much more worried about the Oline after this game more then McNair. McNair isn't going to be able to do much of anything if the line plays like that.

**crowdog89** · 08-26-2006, 02:41 AM

I'm much more worried about the Oline after this game more then McNair. McNair isn't going to be able to do much of anything if the line plays like that.

Some of us have been complaining about our sucky O line for years....including the super bowl year. Whenever the qb debates start, regardless of who the qb is...and the list is long over the past 10 years....but especially over the past 8 years...Harbaugh, Case, Banks, Dilfer, Grbac etc...the argument always comes to..."well, if _____ (fill in blank with QB's name) had a decent O line...." yada, yada, yada....

The problem is the Ravens rarely do anything to truely upgrade the O line. They get at best 2nd round choices such as Terry, who still need a season or two on the bench usually, before they even see any playing time. Not only that but they bring in guys (like Chester) who have either little experience, and/or need to "Bulk up" in the weight room first.

They had better start putting some priority into the O line thru the draft and top line FA over the next couple of years or the team will be in worse shape than they are now(if that's possible)

...especially after Ogden retires.

**Smackums** · 08-26-2006, 02:53 AM

First let me preface my comment by saying that I didn't see the game either. I'll see it when it's replayed on the NFL network at 10am.

The fact that he's completed 31 of 40 passes for an average of 6.8 with one INT means to me that he's making good decisions. If that decision is a dump off and the backs and receivers are getting YAC yards then so be it. Going into tonight the league average per attempt is 6.1 so I won't complain about his 6.8. Like ERIG said, I would love to see more TD's, but I will gladly take 31 completions between interceptions, a 6.8 average and a completion percentage of 77% with our running game and defense.

It also seems like this team missed Jamal Lewis. Again, I didn't see the game, but the 18 yards you got from Musa and Anderson on 11 carries hardly seems sufficient. This game was 10-0 when McNair left, hardly an insurmountable lead. I'm not going to make excuses after a game I didn't see, but if the Ravens are catching 77% of the passes he throws, above the league average in YPA, and only one of his 40 attempts have been picked off then I won't complain about arm strength.

**RavenTD** · 08-26-2006, 06:11 AM

McNair is still learning the terminology.Getting all the kinks out,hence those two first half time outs.He's still finding out the horror that is our offensive line pass protection.

I have every faith in McNair getting it done with a good O'line infront of him.
But like we all have said countless times before.Can he get it done with the Ravens O'line infront of him?

**StingerNLG** · 08-26-2006, 08:38 AM

The fact that he's completed 31 of 40 passes for an average of 6.8 with one INT means to me that he's making good decisions. If that decision is a dump off and the backs and receivers are getting YAC yards then so be it. Going into tonight the league average per attempt is 6.1 so I won't complain about his 6.8. Like ERIG said, I would love to see more TD's, but I will gladly take 31 completions between interceptions, a 6.8 average and a completion percentage of 77% with our running game and defense.

Here's my problem. Two games now in which that style of offense failed to score points. And like the Indy game last year, Stover missed a field goal and we went into halftime with ZERO POINTS.

Thoughout the last couple of years as the "Boller wars" raged over on YBR (Note: Which BTW you should see this morning. It's an unbelievable sight.), I heard the same things over and over:

1) A better QB makes the team around him better.

2) A better QB will be able to overcome the offensive line problems.

3) No one can stack 8 in the box against us anymore.

4) The QB was the primary problem with the team.

5) STATS DON'T MATTER

Anyone watching the game last night, and really in some form the Eagles game has to be highly concerned because the offense looked identical to last year last night, and in two game we've scored 3 points by halftime. A ball control offense is great, but you need to score points first. The Steelers were considered a ball control offense, but they usually got a lead first before running 11 run plays in a row.

And I'm simply using this as a stat, not at all to validate Kyle Boller or anything like that, but in 2004 he went some 100+ passes without an interception. And he did it with dump off passes and short stuff. And the fans dumped on him for it. Now McNair is doing exactly the same thing and we're praising him for it because now we have the receivers that can get YAC.

Last night I saw 8 in the box regularly. As if the Vikings scouted the Philly game and saw the ducks that McNair lofted up if he had to go medium to deep. So they shut down the run and kept their cover 2 somewhat tight. They effectively kept the receivers from breaking big gains and challenged the offense to throw downfield, and it never really happened. Now this doesn't concern anyone?

The offensive line sucks. While people were talking about the QB, and attacking and namecalling, I've been talking about the offensive line. Last night was a clear indication to me that while I LOVE Steve McNair's accomplishments, his talent, his desire, and his knowledge of the game, it isn't going to make a bit of difference so long as he can't get the protection he needs to throw downfield, or simply not get jacked up and put on the ground.

I don't know about you guys, but I went from excited to concerned in a short 2 game span. And it sucks that the only video clip I can make from last night's game are the two GREAT catches by Clarence Moore, and the TD by Boller.