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  1. #1
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    Trump Trials

    It's beyond odd that there's no thread down here dedicated to the Trump trials.

    What I suspect is happening is that discussion of them is wedged into the big election thread. That's a clever trick. Discussing them in there is an implicit endorsement of the bullshit claim that the trials are political persecution of a rival. Like the kangaroo courts of the iron curtain or something. I won't participate in endorsing that absurd idea.

    So let's start a dedicated thread.



    Personally I don't give a shit about the civil trials, like the NY Civil Fraud case before Judge Engoron or the E Jean Carroll case. Well – maybe "don't give a shit" is a little strong. I'm mildly interested in the current wrangling in the civil fraud case about whether the bond (for the appeal) is sufficiently secure. That's not a surprising development, of course. It was always in question just how The Donald would be able finance the bond. How that plays out in court is mildly amusing so far.

    But the civil stuff pales in significance compared to the criminal trials. That's what I want to mostly focus on here.
    For orientation, the criminal trials are:

    • Wash DC, the Jan 6 case (federal)
    • Florida, the classified documents case (federal)
    • Atlanta, the racketeering case (state)
    • New York, the hush-money case (state)


    Current status:

    Wash DC – on-hold pending the Supreme Court smearing their fingerprints all over presidential immunity.
    (Also the legality of one of the charges is raised in another case currently before the court)

    Florida – pre-trial motions.
    Some speculation in liberal media that Jack Smith will file a writ of mandamus to require Loose Cannon to render her opinion on whether the Presidential Records Act gives Trump a right to hold some presidential records as personal, and whether she intends to allow some language about the act in jury instruction, so Smith has time to appeal those opinions. Smith very aggressively put Cannon on notice in his last filing.
    Cannon sniped back at Smith in her latest ruling. But I think she was checked a little. We'll see what the next few weeks bring.

    Atlanta – pre-trial motions.
    Last I heard, the judge ruled that either Fani Willis or her (ex?)boyfriend had to remove themselves.
    It's a nice bit of baby-splitting. Under Atlanta statute, neither Willis nor the boyfriend did anything to warrant removal. But I fully support the judge finding the whole thing distasteful, and wanting that smell banished from his courtroom. Which gives the Trump & co-defendants a victory they weren't by law enititled to, but which has some justification in "appearance of impropriety" and all that.

    New York – Just finished jury selection; opening arguments on Monday.
    MONDAY! Holy shit.


    DC is the one I know the most about. I've followed that one very closely; read most of the filings and all the opinions.

    New York was the one I knew the least about. It's the least interesting & significant one; presents the smallest issues. No Constitutional questions at all.

    But it's also the one that's actually started! So I tried to educate myself over the past week. I now consider myself pretty well informed about it. So, detailed discussion on that case in the next few posts.





  2. #2
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    Re: Trump Trials

    New York, the hush-money case (state court)

    First thing I wanted to know was this:

    What's a Class E felony?

    My exposure to the different "class levels" of felony comes entirely from Law & Order. (Fortuitously, Law & Order was set in New York, so at least we're in the right jurisdiction.) Jack McCoy charges someone with murder, their attorney proposes a plea bargain, and Jack sneers "A Class C felony?? No deal!" So I'm primed regard a Class C felony as some kind of petty crime; slap-on-the-wrist stuff. A Class E is two levels below that! So, what are we talking about??

    Well, using Murder Two as your anchoring point (as we do in Law & Order) sort of skews the perception. It's not "20 years to life", but we're still talking felony. Class E bills at 1 to 4 years per count.

    Here's a couple web sites of New York attorneys, on Class E felonies:

    Under the umbrella of Class E felony, there are two further categories: violent felony and non-violent felony charges. Some non-violent Class E felony charges include abandonment of a child, promoting a suicide attempt, and criminally negligent homicide, while violent felonies include persistent sexual abuse and placing a false bomb or hazardous substance in the second degree.

    As the different felony classes are dependent largely on the sentence given if convicted, there are a wide range of different crimes that are considered Class E felonies despite having little else in common. Here are a few diverse examples of what a Class E felony could look like:

    • Aggravated sexual abuse in the fourth degree (a violent felony)
    • Criminal mischief in the third degree (painting significant graffiti onto the wall of a building that doesn’t belong to you, for example)
    • Arson in the fourth degree (recklessly damaging someone else’s car with a fire you set, for instance)
    • Computer tampering in the third degree
    • Criminal possession of stolen property in the fourth degree
    • Welfare fraud in the fourth degree
    • Rape in the third degree [Statutory??]
    • Falsifying business records in the fourth degree
    • Criminal sale of cannabis in the third degree
    • Criminal sexual act in the third degree
    Some examples of Class E felonies in New York include the following:

    – Grand Larceny in the fourth degree (over $1,000)
    – Criminal possession of a controlled substance in the fifth degree (small amount)
    – Criminal Sale of a Controlled Substance in the fifth degree (small amount)
    – Criminal Sale of a Firearm in the fourth degree (selling without proper licensing)
    – Criminal Possession of a Weapon in the fourth degree
    – Assault in the third degree (causing physical injury to another person, eg by punching them)
    – Forgery in the second degree (alters a check and attempt to cash it)
    Since Class E is the lowest grade of felony, it gets the lowest degree of a lot of different crimes. For example, Arson has four degrees; the first is a Class B felony (3 to 25 years!). The lowest degree is here among the Class Es. The highest degree of Falsifying Business Records (Trump's charge) is the lowest class of felony. Second-degree Falsify is a misdemeanor.

    New York charged Trump with 34 counts:

    11 for invoices from Michael Cohen
    9 for general ledger entries for Donald J. Trump
    3 for general ledger entries for the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust
    8 for checks from Donald J. Trump
    2 for checks from the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust

    The Wikipedia entry on the trial somewhat breathlessly reports that Trump could do 20 years if convicted on five or more of the counts. That seems like one of those things that is technically accurate, but not plausible or realistic. The sentences would have to be (a) the max and (b) consecutive. No judge is gonna do that. I would bet that, if convicted, Trump would probably do a years. Maybe 15 months.

    So, in my opinion, ignore this 20 years nonsense. It's just a noisy headline.



    What distinguishes Falsifying Business Records in the first degree from the second degree?

    Under New York law, Falsifying Business Records in the first degree is Falsifying in the second degree, with the "intent to commit another crime or to aid or conceal the commission thereof".

    As a practical matter, that means that second-degree (the misdemeanor) is a "lesser included charge". A jury could acquit Trump of the first-degree (the felony), and he could still be found guilty of the second-degree, without the DA presenting a separate case.

    It also means that the DA has to prove basically two things: first that Falsifying occured; and second that there was another crime, called a predicate crime, that Trump was trying to commit or cover-up.

    Which raises the obvious question: what predicate crime(s)?

    The surprising answer is, as of the idictment, WE DIDN"T KNOW! The New York DA did not have to lay that out in the indictment, and he didn't.

    New York state law does not require that his office identify the specific underlying offenses in the indictment.




    By the way, if like me you've gotten used to navigating the relative transparency of the federal digital docket system to read the original filings – brace yourself: New York ain't got that.

    Trump's Mystery Docket: Inside NY's Secretive Filing System
    Mar 21, 2024
    https://www.law360.com/articles/1812...-filing-system
    The first criminal indictment of a former American president may have arrived in 21st century New York, but it landed in a court system stuck in the past — where the official record is a disorganized and incomplete mass of paper with no accounting of what's inside.
    ...
    When asked why there is no digital court docket system, the good-natured clerks in the 10th floor office of the New York State Supreme Court, Criminal Term in Manhattan give a weary smirk and a shrug. Even the former president's indictment couldn't escape the standard-issue brown accordion folders that hold official court records.

    The court is among the oldest in the country, with records of indictments, jury verdicts and sentencing minutes dating back to its founding in 1691 — and the paper continues to stack up. Over 36,000 criminal cases were arraigned in the county's criminal courts in 2023, according to the Manhattan district attorney's office. Each got a file folder stuffed with the charges, rap sheet, a paper logging court appearances and any other motion papers or court orders.

    What you won't find is an official list, index or table of contents — known as a "docket sheet" — for what has been filed in the cases. Clerks say such docket sheets do not exist.

    "That's the way everyone has been doing it for the last 100 years," said Barry Kamins, a former state judge turned defense attorney who represented Harvey Weinstein at trial in the same court.
    That is
    Fucked.
    Up.
    Hard to imagine there's any district in greater need of a digital docket system than New York. They've got to do it. But it'll be a large (expensive) undertaking.

    Because of the enormous public interest, some sites are maintaining a digital docket as a public service. Also to drive web traffic and get clicks, no doubt: but it is a public server. Here are two of them:





    Anyway – the DA did not have to lay out the predicate crimes in the indictment, and he didn't. But filings over the subsequent year have clarified that. This past Feb 15 the judge issued his omnibus ruling on the motions to dismiss. That fuling clarified that there are three viable predicate crimes or “object offenses” in the case:

    • NY State Election law against conspiring to use unlawful means to promote or prevent a candidate's election. (misdemeanor)

    • NY State Tax law against intentionally submitting materially false or fraudulent info in any return/audit/etc. (misdemeanor)

    • Federal Election Campaign Act limitations on indidual & corporate contributions. (felony)

    New York had filed an additional potential predicate crime, related to business records separate from the Trump Org, but the judge ruled against them on that one. It's "just" these three.


    I find it hinky that attempt to abet or conceal a misdemeanor would elevate Falsifying from a misdemeamor to a felony. Two misdemeanors make a felony? If I were on the jury I'd need some instruction from the judge about that area of the law. Without a clear understanding of how two Ms make an F, I'd lean toward acquiting on felony Falsifying (though not misdemeanor).

    The fact that there's a felony among the predicate crimes, eases that concern. If the prosecution proved intent to abet or conceal the Federal charge, convicting on felony Falsifying makes sense to me.
    (And it may make sense anyway under NY law, if they "only" show intent to commit or conceal on the two misdemeanors; but I'd need the judge to explain the law on that.)





  3. #3
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    Re: Trump Trials

    New York, the hush-money case (state court)

    I only discovered this after I'd already done a fair amount of reading on the NY charges. As they did for the DC trials about Jan 6, the folks at Just Security have put together an amazing guide to this trial:

    A Complete Guide to the Manhattan Trump Election Interference Prosecution
    March 27, 2024
    https://www.justsecurity.org/93916/g...an-trump-trial


    Addresses all the questions about this trial (that have an objective factual answer). Beautiful work. I'll reference it a lot below.

    By the way, if you've read the Game of Thrones books, this guide refers to the New York DA's office by the acronym "DANY". That caused me a few double-takes.



    Is the DA treating Trump similarly to other people who allegedly did similar acts?

    This is the most fundamental question about this trial. The question is not just a stable of MagaMedia; anyone would wonder that. Is the former president being charged just out of partisan animosity? Or is he being teated like anyone else under like circumstances?

    The answer seems to be:

    Yes Trump is being treated the same as previous {alleged) perpetrators of similar acts. Not something I'm competent to evaluate, of course. But the JustSecurity site tackled that exact question a year ago, just before the indictment was handed down:

    Survey of Past Criminal Prosecutions for Covert Payments to Benefit a Political Campaign
    March 30, 2023
    https://www.justsecurity.org/85745/s...efit-campaigns

    On this page, they list seven cases from New York where First Degree Falsifying was charged with election law violations as the predicate crime:

    1. Clarence Norman, 2003
    2. Nora Anderson & Seth Rubenstein, 2008
    3. John Dote, 2010
    4. David Thomas, David Jones et al, 2015
    5. George Maziarz, Robert Ortt (and Henry Wojtaszek) 2017
    6. Richard Brega, 2017
    7. Richard Luthmann, 2018

    Plus 2 prosecutions from other states, plus 8 federal prosecutions. Hilariously, one of the federal ones was Dinesh D'Souza. He pled guilty in 2014 to using "straw donors" to make illegal contributions to the Wendy Long's 2012 senate campaign. He was sentenced to 8 months in a community confinement center and 5 years probabation. Four years in, Trump pardoned him (May 2018).

    The writers call out the Norman & Brega cases as being particularly close to the facts of the Trump case.

    — Clarence Norman, 2003
    Norman was a member of the NY State Assembly in Central Brooklyn for 23 years, and the leader of the Kings County Democratic Party in Brooklyn. He was indicted twice. The first was a 10-count indictment around solicitation of contributions and falsification of business record. Three counts were dismissed, but he stood trial for the rest. The second was a 7-count indictment around his depositing a campaign check into his personal account and falsifying related records. Four counts were dismissed but stood trial for the rest.

    — Richard Brega, 2017
    Brega was a businessman who had a multi-million dollar contract to transport students in Rockland County. He used 10 "straw donors" to funnel $40,000 to the 2013 campaign of Ilan Schoenberge for county executive. He was indicted for 10 counts of felony Falsifying.

    They also highlight the Dote and Luthmann cases as being close to the Trump situation.


    First-degree Falsifying with a different predicate crime (not Election Law violations) is of course even more common. Law dotcom reported last year that since 2015, 9,794 cases involving state penal law 175.10 (first-degree Falsifying) have been arraigned in both local and superior New York state courts since 2015. (paywalled) During the ten years March 2013-23 the Manhattan DA's office prosecuted 437 such cases. Just Security also did a review of cases like that:

    Survey of Past New York Felony Prosecutions for Falsifying Business Records
    March 21, 2023
    https://www.justsecurity.org/85605/s...siness-records
    Prosecution of falsifying business records in the first degree is commonplace and has been used by New York district attorneys’ offices to hold to account a breadth of criminal behavior from the more petty and simple to the more serious and highly organized. We reach this conclusion after surveying the past decade and a half of criminal cases across all the New York district attorneys’ offices.
    They have a linked white-paper on that site that outlines different cases from the past 15 years. You can click thru to read the whole list. On the front page they listed 8 cases that they said are "a sample of representative precedents":

    NY v Dubon (Oct 2022) — Bronx business owner failed to report over $1m in income, avoiding $60,000 in taxes

    NY v Kirtland (Feb 2022) — Insurance broker filed fraudulent certificates of liability insurance in scheme to defraud

    NY v Garner (Nov 2021) — Mental health therapy aide defrauded over $35,000 in workers’ comp benefits

    NY v Palmer (Nov 2016) — Pled out to petit larceny for unemployment benefits fraud of over $3,000

    NY v Holley (Nov 2016) — Guilty of the misdemeanor but acquitted of the predicate crime, insurance fraud.

    NY v Murray (2 cases, May 2014 & 15) — Married couple attempted to recover cash value of items ostensibly lost in a fire

    NY v Freeland (Jun 2013) — Falsely claimed on a food stamps application that a young adult lived with her

    NY v Ramirez (Aug 2010) — Returned unpurchased items to a store in exchange for store credit, used the credit to buy add'l items

    On that list, an entry like:
    Manhattan real-estate owner fabricated invoices and GL entries to evade state tax law obligations
    – would fit right in.

    The only thing different is, the defendant is a massively high-profile public figure. Having a former president of the US as a defendant is novel. Prosecuting this conduct in New York is not.



    That takes care of the "threshold" questions I had, going into the case:
    What's a Class E felony?
    What makes felony Falsifying different from misdemeanor Falsifying?
    Is this type of conduct usually prosecuted? Or is the New York DA treating Trump differently?

    Those are the things I wanted to have a foundation in, before the trial started.



    As a reminder, the JustSecurity guide is here:

    A Complete Guide to the Manhattan Trump Election Interference Prosecution
    March 27, 2024
    https://www.justsecurity.org/93916/g...an-trump-trial


    To help you decide your level interest (or whet your appetite), here's the Table of Contents:

    INTRODUCTION

    FROM INDICTMENT TO DISPOSITIVE MOTIONS

    1. What is the case about, and why does it matter?
    2. Is the case weak or strong?
    3. What has happened so far?
    4. What happened on removal?
    5. What happened on preemption?
    6. What happened on Motions to Dismiss?
    7. Why was the March 25, 2024 start of the trial delayed until April 15?
    8. Didn’t a former prosecutor quit the case and criticize it?

    THE JUDGE, THE LAWYERS AND THE COURTHOUSE

    9. Who is Justice Merchan?
    10. Who are the lawyers?
    11. Who is on the Prosecution Team?
    12. Who is on the Trump Defense Team?
    13. Can the public watch?
    14. How does the press get access to the court?

    VENUE

    15. Will Trump try to move the trial to a different county in New York?
    16. What happens if there is a change of venue?
    17. What’s the legal standard?
    18. Can Trump change the venue by claiming that Justice Merchan is biased?
    19. When does Trump need to file a motion to change venue?
    20. Will the trial be stayed while Trump seeks a venue change?

    OTHER PRETRIAL MATTERS

    21. Is there a gag order in place?
    22. What motions in limine did the parties file, and how did the court rule?
    a. State of New York’s motions in limine, Trump’s Opposition, and the court’s rulings
    b. Trump’s motions in limine, DANY’s opposition, and the court’s ruling
    23. What discovery has Trump turned over?
    24. Does the criminal trial of the Trump Organization business offer any insight into this case?

    JURY SELECTION

    25. Why is this a jury trial?
    26. How many jurors will there be?
    27. Who can sit as a juror?
    28. Who is in the jury pool?
    29. What is voir dire/jury selection and how does it work?
    30. What can we expect from jury selection here?
    a. Juror Demographics
    b. Duration of Jury Selection
    c. Potential Questions and Striking Jurors
    31. Will Trump know the jurors’ names and addresses?

    TRIAL: THE CORE PROSECUTION AND DEFENSE CASES

    32. What are the stages of a criminal trial?
    33. What can we expect from opening statements?
    a. The Prosecution Opening
    b. The Defense Opening
    34. What is the prosecution’s case?
    35. What is the defense case?
    36. Will Trump be present during trial?
    37. Will Trump testify, and will it hurt him if he doesn’t?
    38. How long will the trial last?
    39. How long will jury deliberations take?

    ADDITIONAL TRIAL ISSUES

    40. What does DANY have to prove to convict?
    41. What are the other crimes that DANY has to prove Trump intended to commit, aid, or conceal?
    a. Federal Election Campaign Act (FECA)
    b. State Election Law
    c. State Tax Law
    42. What is the burden of proof?
    43. What will be Trump’s main legal defenses?
    44. Does presidential immunity apply?
    45. Will Trump argue an “advice-of-counsel” defense?
    46. What will be the jury instructions?

    SENTENCING AND APPEAL

    47. If convicted, what will be Trump’s sentence?
    48. If convicted, does Trump have a right to appeal?
    49. Can the state appeal?
    50. Will Trump’s conviction and/or sentence (if any) be stayed pending appeal or if Trump is reelected?





  4. #4
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    Re: Trump Trials

    New York, the hush-money case (state court)


    The week of jury selection produced some fun moments.


    Trump was forced to listen silently as potential jurors offered their unvarnished assessments of him
    by: Jill Colvin, Associated Press · Apr 20, 2024
    https://www.wowktv.com/news/u-s-worl...tion-for-court
    Over the past week, Donald Trump has been forced to sit inside a frigid New York courtroom and listen to a parade of potential jurors in his criminal hush money trial share their unvarnished assessments of him.

    It’s been a dramatic departure for the former president and presumptive 2024 GOP nominee, who is accustomed to spending his days in a cocoon of cheering crowds and constant adulation.
    ...
    [One prospective juror said] “He just seems very selfish and self-serving, so I don’t really appreciate that in any public servant,” she said, adding that while she doesn’t “know him as a person,” how he “portrays himself in public, it just seems to me it is not my cup of tea.”
    ...
    On Friday, one prospective juror, who said she had attended the 2017 Women’s March protesting Trump’s inauguration, complained of the influence he has over his base.

    “I think his rhetoric at times enables people to feel as if they have permission to discriminate or act on their negative impulses,” she said, citing people she has heard make homophobic or racist comments. Still, she said she didn’t have strong feelings about the former president and wasn’t sure of his current policy positions.

    Another man said he’d grown up admiring the former president and business mogul’s real estate portfolio and even thinking he might someday live in Trump Tower. But he had come to oppose Trump’s “negative rhetoric and bias against people that he speaks about.”

    At other times, lawyers read aloud social media posts from prospective jurors mocking Trump and celebrating his defeats.

    Legal twitter had a whole lot of fun with that last bit:


    The greatest voir dire in history



    Drowsy Don was also falling asleep in the courtroom.

    Now, his campaign travel schedule is brutal. I might drop dead if I had to keep such a schedule. But it's hilarious when the guy who attacks "Sleepy Joe Biden", and who is actually older than Biden was when he campaigned against him last, can't stay awake.

    Also he seems to be farting in his sleep:

    Meiselas: What I’m hearing from credible sources is that Donald Trump is actually farting in the courtroom – I’m hearing it from actual credible people that as he’s kind of falling asleep, he’s actually passing gas and that his lawyers are really struggling with the smell.
    As I mentioned yesterday. Several reporters told me while he slept he would fart loudly. And then grunt and move.
    George Conway
    @gtconway3d
    Apr 19, 2024
    https://twitter.com/gtconway3d/statu...80399698002206
    I heard this too. I’m not kidding. The court’s going to have to issue more than a gag order here.

    It'd be hilarious if the most salient facts to emerge from the trial, that damage Trump's elections chances, aren't about the case at all, but that he can't stay awake and he's incontinent.



    Shockingly, jury selection is complete, and opening statements are on Monday. Most legal commentators are stunned; they expected it to take weeks. Either Judge Merchan is efficient AF (possible); or some prospective jurors were concealing the depth of their opinons/feelings about Trump.

    I'm worried about that second scenario. I've long felt that in the Wash DC case, some Maga moron would keep his convictions hidden during voir dire and get himself onto the jury, then vote not-guilty no matter what the evidence and hang the jury. Could happen in NYC.




    With jury selection complete, Merchan held a hearing on the People's "Sandoval notice", outlining the 13 "prior bad acts" prosecutors plan to use to impeach Trump's credibility, either on cross if he takes the stand or as part of their case-in-chief. (You can find the Sandoval motion in either of the digital dockets linked a couple posts ago.) Merchan could exclude some or all of them, as being more prejudicial than probative. But the list is interesting:


    1–NY civil fraud trial
    Defendant repeatedly and persistently falsified business records

    2–NY civil fraud trial
    Defendant testified untruthfully under oath when he claimed that his public comments about a judge's law clerk were instead about a witness.

    3–NY civil fraud trial
    Defendant intentionally violated court order by making public attacks on a judge's law clerk

    4–NY civil fraud trial
    Defendant violated court order by failing to remove "untrue, disparaging, and personally identifying post" about the court's Principal Law Clerk

    5–NY civil fraud trial
    Defendant committed repeated and persistent fraud in the transaction of business

    6–E Jean Carroll case
    Jury awarded E Jean Carroll $83,300,000 in compensatory and punitive damages for defamatory statements

    7–E Jean Carroll case
    Defendant defamed E Jean Carroll in public statements on June 21 and June 22, 2019 by making false statements with actual malice.
    [Same conduct the jury awarded for in #6 above]

    8–E Jean Carroll case
    Defendant sexually abused E Jean Carroll. Jury awarded damages.

    9–E Jean Carroll case
    Defendant defamed E Jean Carroll in a public statement made on October 12, 2022 on Truth Social by making a false statement with actual malice.

    10–Trump v Clinton suit
    Court sanctioned defendant and ordered him to pay $937,989 in fees for filing a frivolous, bad-faith lawsuit.
    [I forgot this happened!]

    11–People v Trump Corporation, NY (Weisselberg's plea deal)
    Convicted on seventeen felony counts of scheme to defraud, conspiracy, criminal tax fraud, and falsifying business records

    12–NY civil fraud trial
    Defendant illegally allowed his 2016 presidential campaign to orchestrate a fundraiser for the Donald J. Trump Foundation. Breach of fiduciary duty and waste.

    13––NY civil fraud trial
    Defendant stipulated to the dissolution of the Donald J. Trump foundation to resolve the above claims


    That's a breathtaking list. Liberal commentators had fun with the fact that Drowsy Don had to sit thru the recitation of it; but really the list is tragic. I saw at least one report that Trump looked "shaken" after it, for whatever that's worth. I'm kind of shook just reading it.

    There's no way in fuck Merchan is going to allow a jury to hear that Trump sexually abused E Jean Carroll. That's as prejudicial as anything could possibly be, and there's no "probative value" in it, in terms of information about his propensity for falsifying business records.

    But items 1, 5 & 11 seem to be directly on point.

    I'm curious if items 2, 3 & 4 are in there principally to remind Judge Merchan that the defendant likes picking on law clerks. Not to prejudice the jury, but to jaundice the judge. Clever, if so.



    Speaking of pissing off the judge – Trump has talked himself into a show-cause hearing on whether he should be held in contempt! Genius.

    The original motion from the prosecution was over three Truth Social tweets about Michael Cohen & Stormy Daniels. Then Trump tweeted seven more items, links to articles criticizing Cohen or calling some of the jurors "undercover liberal activists".

    Prosecutors are asking Merchan to fine Trump a thousand dollars for each of the tweets, and warn him that further violations could result in jail time. New York authorizes 30 days in jail for contempt. Obviously the thousand-dollar fine is nothing to Trump. So –

    How real would a threat of jail time be? It's just about the last thing Merchan wants to do, jail a candidate for president before a verdict. That's a fucking nightmare for him. The courthouse picketed, the safety of courthouse staff, the safety of his own family, screaming headlines: yeesh. Trump knows this. And Trump is a master of the little brother "I'm not touching you! I'm not touching you!" mode of behavior. Merchan can refine his gag order as much as he wants; Trump will find some zone of ambiguity. "Does linking an article fall under the gag order the same way critizing a witness in Trump's own words does?" And he'll keep poking and poking.

    I suspect Merchan will fine Trump the $3,000 (or $7,000) and warn him about possible other consequences, that could include jail time. And then Trump will walk out of the courtroom and poke harder. He'll keep poking and poking. I believe Trump will dare Merchan to jail him for contempt. Trump is sure that his rabid following gives him the upper hand here, and Merchan will have to cave. Merchan will try to ignore it, until presecutores file another motion. And then – ?

    I think ultimately Merchan will have to jail Trump for contempt. Not this week. But I'd be shocked if Trump modulates his behavior after the contempt hearing. And every parent knows that when you deal with a toddler, sometimes you have to deliver on threats. So I think that within, say, the next 2 weeks Merchan will have to jail Trump for a small period of time. Like 24 hours or a couple days.

    Then we'll get some riots. Hopefully not too bad, and no one hurt. And the trial will continue.
    Last edited by JimZipCode; 04-21-2024 at 02:20 AM.





  5. #5
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    Re: Trump Trials

    Wash DC, the Jan 6 case (federal court)


    It's been such an eventful week, that it's easy to forget: oral arguments in the Immunity case before the Supreme Court are Wednesday!

    Evidently Trump didn't forget. Seems he posted on his Truth Social platform:




    He IS dumb as a rock. Under Trump's absurd theory of presidential immunity, Biden could have Trump executed right now for Jan 6 and for being an ongoing threat to democracy. Actually – strike that, Biden needn't provide any pretext at all. He could just do it for no reason.

    That of course is why presidents have never had complete immunity.



    Why the fuck did those clowns on the Supreme Court grant cert, anyway??? The opinion by the DC appeals court was obviously correct. And superbly written.

    There's a tradition for the Supreme Court to be somewhat deferential to the DC Circuit on Constitutional questions, because it handles more Constitutional questions than any other circuit. And the only area that ruling could reasonably be questioned on was the jurisdictional question. But if the DC Circuit erred on that one, the case goes right back to Chutkan, and her original ruling on immunity stands.

    The Supreme Court should have just affirmed. (That would have required six votes.)

    My wife thinks, not that the court wants to change it, but that they are egotists who want to smear their thumbprints on the issue because it's such a momentous opinion. They want the exact ruling the appeals court gave, but in their own dulcet phrases. It's plausible. Certainly sounds like Gorsuch & Thomas & Kavanaugh, at least. I hope it's right.

    My darker fear is that the radical right justices on the court want to issue a ruling that says it is, like the ruling in Bush v Gore, "limited to the present circumstances", and that Trump is immune to prosecution for Jan 6, but only ex-president Trump, for Jan 6.

    I guess we'll see.



    Bet: if the court upholds the DC appeals court ruling, which it clearly should, the opinion will not be as well crafted or as well written as the DC appeals court's was.





  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2020
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    Blue crab country
    Posts
    1,815

    Re: Trump Trials

    Just some shorter reading about the fallacy of the NY case

    https://www.newsweek.com/alvin-bragg...0that%20power.

    All you gotta do is look at the other 2 NY cases to see if he is being treated fairly or not in NY. 87 million to Carrol for defamation and 464 million for overvaluing property. Extremely steep and politically motivated. Just like all the cases.

    Still wondering why the Confederate soldier can't charge Trump with the 18 U.S. Code 2383 insurrection charge. Jim's people are calling it an insurrection. Right? Go figger.

    Anybody with common sense can see it's just a ploy to keep Trump off the campaign trail and do their best to damage his election chances. Banana republic stategies.
    I don't know a lot but I know a little





  7. #7

    Re: Trump Trials

    Quote Originally Posted by Willbacker View Post
    Just some shorter reading about the fallacy of the NY case

    https://www.newsweek.com/alvin-bragg...0that%20power.

    All you gotta do is look at the other 2 NY cases to see if he is being treated fairly or not in NY. 87 million to Carrol for defamation and 464 million for overvaluing property. Extremely steep and politically motivated. Just like all the cases.

    Still wondering why the Confederate soldier can't charge Trump with the 18 U.S. Code 2383 insurrection charge. Jim's people are calling it an insurrection. Right? Go figger.

    Anybody with common sense can see it's just a ploy to keep Trump off the campaign trail and do their best to damage his election chances. Banana republic stategies.
    But Jim won’t participate in endorsing that idea, so….

    I wonder why he won’t get much participation, single that is the only logical conclusion.

    I’m still amazed that Liberals keep trying to admonish the “insurrection” that was just a bunch of drunk people walking into an open and unlocked building to take selfies but praise the summer RIOTS that literally took over and destroyed cities over a BS narrative pushed by a biased media.

    Until that bridge is gapped, conversations between the two sides will be difficult,


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





  8. #8

    Re: Trump Trials

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    I’m still amazed that Liberals keep trying to admonish the “insurrection” that was just a bunch of drunk people walking into an open and unlocked building to take selfies
    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    You make it sound like people just walked in like it was an open house...we both know that was NOT the case. People broke windows and climbed though the broken glass to get in. How is that just walking into an open an unlocked building? At 1:10 pm a Capitol police officer called for backup saying they are throwing metal poles at us. How is that peaceful? At 1:45 pm RIOTERS surged past police protecting the west entrance to get it. How is that just drunk people walking into a building? I saw the video. These people surged past police - they did not just WALK in. Anyone with eyes can see that. Rioters called for Pence to be hung. That is mob mentality. If he was there and they had a lynching rope he would have been strung up. At 2:41 pm in a hallway outside the House chamber, a group attempts to force its way through a set of locked doors. The glass window panes on the doors are shattered. A rioter uses a baton to smash through as the crowd around him chants "break it down, break it down".

    I can go on and on with the timeline and events. Does your description of just a bunch of drunk people walking into an open building taking selfies really fit what happened? Just no....





  9. #9

    Re: Trump Trials

    Quote Originally Posted by 2bynight View Post
    You make it sound like people just walked in like it was an open house...we both know that was NOT the case. People broke windows and climbed though the broken glass to get in. How is that just walking into an open an unlocked building? At 1:10 pm a Capitol police officer called for backup saying they are throwing metal poles at us. How is that peaceful? At 1:45 pm RIOTERS surged past police protecting the west entrance to get it. How is that just drunk people walking into a building? I saw the video. These people surged past police - they did not just WALK in. Anyone with eyes can see that. Rioters called for Pence to be hung. That is mob mentality. If he was there and they had a lynching rope he would have been strung up. At 2:41 pm in a hallway outside the House chamber, a group attempts to force its way through a set of locked doors. The glass window panes on the doors are shattered. A rioter uses a baton to smash through as the crowd around him chants "break it down, break it down".

    I can go on and on with the timeline and events. Does your description of just a bunch of drunk people walking into an open building taking selfies really fit what happened? Just no....
    A lot closer than the Floyd RIOTS being “mostly peaceful protests” that is for sure. What was there a dozen cops because the requested national guard were waved off as unnecessary for the express purpose of allowing the “I insurrection” to happen?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





  10. #10

    Re: Trump Trials

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    A lot closer than the Floyd RIOTS being “mostly peaceful protests” that is for sure. What was there a dozen cops because the requested national guard were waved off as unnecessary for the express purpose of allowing the “I insurrection” to happen?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    I was specifically addressing your commentary about Jan 6th environment. However, if you have seen prior posts of mine, you know that I believe any protest that gets out of control where people set fires, rob stores, deface property, block traffic on highways, etc...they should all be thrown into jail whether they are conservative or liberal. Politics is moot at that point if they break the law.





  11. #11

    Re: Trump Trials

    Quote Originally Posted by 2bynight View Post
    You make it sound like people just walked in like it was an open house...we both know that was NOT the case. People broke windows and climbed though the broken glass to get in. How is that just walking into an open an unlocked building? At 1:10 pm a Capitol police officer called for backup saying they are throwing metal poles at us. How is that peaceful? At 1:45 pm RIOTERS surged past police protecting the west entrance to get it. How is that just drunk people walking into a building? I saw the video. These people surged past police - they did not just WALK in. Anyone with eyes can see that. Rioters called for Pence to be hung. That is mob mentality. If he was there and they had a lynching rope he would have been strung up. At 2:41 pm in a hallway outside the House chamber, a group attempts to force its way through a set of locked doors. The glass window panes on the doors are shattered. A rioter uses a baton to smash through as the crowd around him chants "break it down, break it down".

    I can go on and on with the timeline and events. Does your description of just a bunch of drunk people walking into an open building taking selfies really fit what happened? Just no....
    Nor what is it any armed insurrection, there is also video of the guards showing intruders around the capitol.......like a guided tour. I also noticed you never mentioned the absolute evidence that the FBI had agents there inciting the crowd......."bad actors". I won't dispute that anyone who entered the capitol should be prosecuted. But what has taken place in that prosecution is also scandalous. There are people who are serving 7 years. That's not justice. Many people have done much less time for way more serious crimes.

    Also, no one including Trump has been charged with "insurrection" but yet that's what it's referred to on the MSM. As much as I wouldn't call it an armed insurrection I would say it was allowed to happen. It wasn't a planned attack, 99% of the people had no idea what they were going to do once they were in the capitol. Most just looked at each other and said........"now what?"

    Lastly, since you have such a strong opinion of this event Jimmy........tell us what you think would happen if it was a real event where people were armed? If there truly were bad actors that wanted to make a political statement and take over the capitol? Maybe set off an explosive device? Although you're correct about a half dozen guards put up a half hearted fight......why wasn't the capitol properly protected? It's the capitol........right? "called for backup"? LOL.........the capitol police don't have enough to protect the capitol on the premises? Someone has to make a phone call? "Come on man".......LOL There were protest planned that day and there isn't proper staffing protecting the capitol? When congress was in town? Seriously? That doesn't sound fishy to you?


    Also, Jimmy Boy......you must not got the memo, we don't discuss in depth topics like this around here. What I have been told it's a "short platform" type forum. No deep thinking allowed. Geeeeeez you think I have time to read all of that you posted? I have more important things to do like catching up on what's going on in the WWE........
    Always buying Antique and vintage items......





  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Mt. Arrogance in the middle of the .11 rolling acres of The Windbag Estates
    Posts
    14,185

    Re: Trump Trials

    Quote Originally Posted by 2bynight View Post
    You make it sound like people just walked in like it was an open house...we both know that was NOT the case. People broke windows and climbed though the broken glass to get in. How is that just walking into an open an unlocked building? At 1:10 pm a Capitol police officer called for backup saying they are throwing metal poles at us. How is that peaceful? At 1:45 pm RIOTERS surged past police protecting the west entrance to get it. How is that just drunk people walking into a building? I saw the video. These people surged past police - they did not just WALK in. Anyone with eyes can see that. Rioters called for Pence to be hung. That is mob mentality. If he was there and they had a lynching rope he would have been strung up. At 2:41 pm in a hallway outside the House chamber, a group attempts to force its way through a set of locked doors. The glass window panes on the doors are shattered. A rioter uses a baton to smash through as the crowd around him chants "break it down, break it down".

    I can go on and on with the timeline and events. Does your description of just a bunch of drunk people walking into an open building taking selfies really fit what happened? Just no....
    Very few people did any breaking of windows, etc. Most, by far, walked in. None were armed.

    There are grandmothers in jail right now for J6? They did nothing but stroll in. Are you okay with that?

    Have you seen the little bit of the footage that was released from inside the building?

    The only thing concerning that happened that day is the gunning down of an unarmed Ashley Babbit, murdered by a police officer who has yet to be held accountable.
    Last edited by Greg; 04-22-2024 at 10:04 PM.





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