Why do we believe in Mike Macdonald ?

[ravens82]

I agree with you about this.
Wink was a great DC who is being slandered all over this site, mainly because of injuries. When the team wasn't decimated, Wink's defenses were always top 5.

MacDonald isn't Wink, that's why he's getting so much love. I hope he's going to be good but getting too excited based on his resume is like expecting a draft pick who had one year of college production to be great. Maybe he will, but it's no sure thing.

The two bits of RSR logic I don't understand are -

1. MacDonald's "experience with the system" is held up as a positive thing, yet the DCs he worked under - Pees and Wink - are hated around here. So is his familiarity with the defense a good or bad thing?

2. Wink is getting the blame for the defensive under-performance in 21, yet injuries are considered a valid excuse for the under-performance of Roman's offense. Is that just because we kept one on and got rid of the other or is there more to it?

I don't think Wink was hated around here at all. He coached some great defenses. I think last year showed some of the vulnerabilities in his approach and it appears he didn't want to change it, at least not in a way that satisfied Harbaugh. Hence the "mutual parting of ways".

MacDonald's familiarity with the system is great, since he's not trying to replace it entirely. I think he's going to modify and augment it with some new concepts. I'll be interested to see the defensive chess match in the BAL vs. NYG game this year.

[JimZipCode]

This “faith” in McDonald is a rather obvious example of a straw man. Who is saying they have faith in McDonald?

Lots of people on this forum. I can't count how many straw comments I've run across here, people saying stuff like "finally we have a real defensive coordinator," or we how glad they that we now have a smart & aggressive defensive coordinator.

Frankly mystifying comments. And I guess those are what I'm responding to here.

I think McDonald’s strength was probably viewed as primarily within the player development realm, if I was to guess. Considering his background in the Bellicheck system and his hiring a Dolphins coach...

What on earth are you talking about? Macdonald hasn't spent on a minute with a Belichick staff. His entire pro experience is here in Balto.

Macdonald started out coaching high school ball while he was still a student at Georgia; then a few years on-staff at Georgia, first as a grad asst and then as a quality-control asst. Then he arrived in Baltimore in 2014 as an intern and worked his way up: intern, defensive asst, DB coach, LB coach, before his semester abroad at Michigan.

The one thing you are NOT getting with Macdonald is any wide experience with a variety of systems & styles. You're getting a guy who developed under Dean Pees & Wink Martindale, period.

Also Macdonald hasn't made any coaching hires. He brought one guy with him from Michigan, Ryan Osborn, to be a defensive Quality Control asst.


As an aside, Osborn's background is interesting He seems to have done FOUR seasons as a defensive grad asst at starting in 2016: 2 seasons at Mississippi State under HC Dan Mullen in 2016-17, working with LB and OL; then another two seasons at Florida under Mullen in 2018-19, running the scout team and doing advance prep. That's not how I understood grad-asst positions to work. But what's weird is, he seems to have extensive coaching experience from before that. Started 2011-12 at the Maine Maritime Academy as video coordinator, spec teams coordinator, and DL coach. Then 2013 at Amherst College, OLB coach. Two years at St. Norbert College 2014-15, asst spec teams coordinator + DB coach + video coordinator + OLB coach + DC.
After Florida, Osborn did a year at UT-Martin in 2020 as DL coach, run game coordinator and co-spec teams coordinator. Here's a super-informative, very technical interview with him from his time at UT-Martin:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...t/id1473232876

Osborn was a hot young college coach a year ago. Georgia wanted him for their staff, Jim Harbs got him. Osborn broke some college rules at Michigan, actually coaching guys when the analyst position is not supposed to coach. So that's interesting: a guy who is so compelling that Jim Harbs broke rules for him. A bunch of the Michigan front-7 guys spoke very highly of him; Ojabo called him "the guru". A name to remember.

I don’t think scheme was ever the issue with Wink. I think he was gone primarily because there is a certain trajectory of player development expected, and Wink was missing the benchmarks. It was starting to create drag.

Can you be specific here? Patrick Queen I can see. Who else missed benchmarks? Doesn't seem like Jaylon Ferguson had a ton of upside, so I'm not sure I'd ding Wink's "development" chops on him.

Another big reason was that his scheme was going into four years – basically there was a growing “How To” manual on the Wink defense in Baltimore, and the defense lacked the core flexibility to stay fresh. Things weren’t looking up.

That seems like bullshit to me.

Four reasons:

1. Wink's squads led the led in fewest-points allowed during the years of his tenure.
2. Wink's worst unit came in an injury-ravaged year, and still finished 12th*.
3. Not looking up? Adding Hamilton & Ojabo + getting Peters & Oweh back – you think Wink's D wouldn't have been good?
4. Macdonald's scheme IS Wink's scheme.

That last point is demonstrated by the comments the Michigan players made about Macdonald when he was there; and proven by the guy Jim Harbs hired to replace Macdonald. They hired former Ravens DB coach Jesse Minter to succeed Macdonald; they hired him specifically so they could retain their current concepts/verbiage. Minter & Macdonald were both using the Ravens defensive playbook as re-written by Wink in 2018.

Wink's departure feels more, uh, "political" to me. Like for example:

• Harbs figured out that Rob Ryan was a clown and wanted him gone, Wink said no it's my staff and he's my bro, and Harbs said ok yer out too.

(I'm serious about that. BTW Rob is in Vegas now, a defensive asst under Josh McDaniels; their current DC is also an ex-Pat, as is Rob himself.)

• Or Harbs wanted the Ravens to move toward more Fangio-style coverages, the modern style of defense to counteract Ja'Marr Chase & co, and Wink doesn't believe in that, so Harbs heaved him for a younger DC that he can dictate to.
• Or maybe Harbs just wanted to grab his whiz-kid young coach before some other NFL team snapped him up. He's sure spent a lot of time grooming him.

Something like that. Not that Wink's general level of effectiveness was fading.

I mean sheesh: this past year Wink finally slowed down Mahomes & the Chiefs. They held the champion Rams to 14 pts thru 59 mins, despite being completely out-manned in the secondary. Came within a whisker of beating the Packers. Frankly this year's might have been one of Wink's most impressive coaching jobs, when you factor in the injuries.

Compare this past year's defensive performance with the one in 2007. Both units were similar devastated in the secondary. The 2007 unit was far more talented overall. But they collapsed; this year's team competed. No doubt a lot of that credit goes to Harbaugh; but Wink gets some too. 2021 certainly didn't show that time has passed Wink by.

_________
*The 2021 Ravens D was much worse in DVOA than by points: 4th in rush D but 30th in pass D. Which makes sense, given all the injured DBs. Wink's healthy defenses were ranked 4th, 5th and 9th in DVOA.

Harbs has seen McDonald in action for years. He interviewed a lot of other experienced coaches

Oh yeah: I know Harbs has been grooming Macdonald. He's talked about him as a rising star for literally years. As if he's the Sean McVay of defense. It'll be interesting to see what that looks like.

The Ravens hired Mike. Go Mike! That’s my faith in Mike McDonald.

I should have mentioned at the top: It is hard to write a post questioning why fans are so high on a guy, without sounding like I think the guy is gonna suck. Hard for me, anyway. To be clear, I don't think Macdonald is gonna suck.

Ravens DCs always succeed; this guy is ambitious & energetic; he's clearly talented, to get to this point at such a young age (35). He's deeply steeped in the Ravens way of doing things, under first Pees and then Wink. I'm sure he was closely involved in the work when Wink rewrote the defensive playbook in 2018. No reason to think Macdonald will "fail".

I just don't get the Macdonald-specific excitement, as if we've seen anything from him to know what he'll be like. Nor any associated anti-Wink sentiment.

---

By the way, Macdonald's wife is a former Redskins cheerleader. Stephanie.

I don't think Wink was hated around here at all. He coached some great defenses. I think last year showed some of the vulnerabilities in his approach...

How so?

Every DC's scheme is "vulnerable" when you lose all your starting DBs.

[Captain Silver]

Lots of people on this forum. I can't count how many straw comments I've run across here, people saying stuff like "finally we have a real defensive coordinator," or we how glad they that we now have a smart & aggressive defensive coordinator.

Frankly mystifying comments. And I guess those are what I'm responding to here.


What on earth are you talking about? Macdonald hasn't spent on a minute with a Belichick staff. His entire pro experience is here in Balto.

Macdonald started out coaching high school ball while he was still a student at Georgia; then a few years on-staff at Georgia, first as a grad asst and then as a quality-control asst. Then he arrived in Baltimore in 2014 as an intern and worked his way up: intern, defensive asst, DB coach, LB coach, before his semester abroad at Michigan.

The one thing you are NOT getting with Macdonald is any wide experience with a variety of systems & styles. You're getting a guy who developed under Dean Pees & Wink Martindale, period.

Also Macdonald hasn't made any coaching hires. He brought one guy with him from Michigan, Ryan Osborn, to be a defensive Quality Control asst.


As an aside, Osborn's background is interesting He seems to have done FOUR seasons as a defensive grad asst at starting in 2016: 2 seasons at Mississippi State under HC Dan Mullen in 2016-17, working with LB and OL; then another two seasons at Florida under Mullen in 2018-19, running the scout team and doing advance prep. That's not how I understood grad-asst positions to work. But what's weird is, he seems to have extensive coaching experience from before that. Started 2011-12 at the Maine Maritime Academy as video coordinator, spec teams coordinator, and DL coach. Then 2013 at Amherst College, OLB coach. Two years at St. Norbert College 2014-15, asst spec teams coordinator + DB coach + video coordinator + OLB coach + DC.
After Florida, Osborn did a year at UT-Martin in 2020 as DL coach, run game coordinator and co-spec teams coordinator. Here's a super-informative, very technical interview with him from his time at UT-Martin:

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcas...t/id1473232876

Osborn was a hot young college coach a year ago. Georgia wanted him for their staff, Jim Harbs got him. Osborn broke some college rules at Michigan, actually coaching guys when the analyst position is not supposed to coach. So that's interesting: a guy who is so compelling that Jim Harbs broke rules for him. A bunch of the Michigan front-7 guys spoke very highly of him; Ojabo called him "the guru". A name to remember.


Can you be specific here? Patrick Queen I can see. Who else missed benchmarks? Doesn't seem like Jaylon Ferguson had a ton of upside, so I'm not sure I'd ding Wink's "development" chops on him.


That seems like bullshit to me.

Four reasons:

1. Wink's squads led the led in fewest-points allowed during the years of his tenure.
2. Wink's worst unit came in an injury-ravaged year, and still finished 12th*.
3. Not looking up? Adding Hamilton & Ojabo + getting Peters & Oweh back – you think Wink's D wouldn't have been good?
4. Macdonald's scheme IS Wink's scheme.

That last point is demonstrated by the comments the Michigan players made about Macdonald when he was there; and proven by the guy Jim Harbs hired to replace Macdonald. They hired former Ravens DB coach Jesse Minter to succeed Macdonald; they hired him specifically so they could retain their current concepts/verbiage. Minter & Macdonald were both using the Ravens defensive playbook as re-written by Wink in 2018.

Wink's departure feels more, uh, "political" to me. Like for example:

• Harbs figured out that Rob Ryan was a clown and wanted him gone, Wink said no it's my staff and he's my bro, and Harbs said ok yer out too.

(I'm serious about that. BTW Rob is in Vegas now, a defensive asst under Josh McDaniels; their current DC is also an ex-Pat, as is Rob himself.)

• Or Harbs wanted the Ravens to move toward more Fangio-style coverages, the modern style of defense to counteract Ja'Marr Chase & co, and Wink doesn't believe in that, so Harbs heaved him for a younger DC that he can dictate to.

Something like that. Not that Wink's general level of effectiveness was fading.

I mean sheesh: this past year Wink finally slowed down Mahomes & the Chiefs. They held the champion Rams to 14 pts thru 59 mins, despite being completely out-manned in the secondary. Came within a whisker of beating the Packers. Frankly this year's might have been one of Wink's most impressive coaching jobs, when you factor in the injuries.

Compare this past year's defensive performance with the one in 2007. Both units were similar devastated in the secondary. The 2007 unit was far more talented overall. But they collapsed; this year's team competed. No doubt a lot of that credit goes to Harbaugh; but Wink gets some too. 2021 certainly didn't show that time has passed Wink by.

_________
*The 2021 Ravens D was much worse in DVOA than by points: 4th in rush D but 30th in pass D. Which makes sense, given all the injured DBs. Wink's healthy defenses were ranked 4th, 5th and 9th in DVOA.


Oh yeah: I know Harbs has been grooming Macdonald. He's talked about him as a rising star for literally years. As if he's the Sean McVay of defense. It'll be interesting to see what that looks like.


I should have mentioned at the top: It is hard to write a post questioning why fans are so high on a guy, without sounding like I think the guy is gonna suck. Hard for me, anyway. To be clear, I don't think Macdonald is gonna suck.

Ravens DCs always succeed; this guy is ambitious & energetic; he's clearly talented, to get to this point at such a young age (35). He's deeply steeped in the Ravens way of doing things, under first Pees and then Wink. I'm sure he was closely involved in the work when Wink rewrote the defensive playbook in 2018. No reason to think Macdonald will "fail".

I just don't get the Macdonald-specific excitement, as if we've seen anything from him to know what he'll be like. Nor any associated anti-Wink sentiment.

---

By the way, Macdonald's wife is a former Redskins cheerleader. Stephanie.

Tiger in the tall grass.
*mic drop*

[AQKingRaven]

Because he was given good players at Michigan and produced a good defense where the best players shined. Simple.

I however would have prefered an outsider to this bizzare grooming your replacment trend. Ozzie, Harbs and Cass more or less picking their successors. I'd prefer to see new faces and ideas challenging the status quo. That being said i dont ever want to read the words "Bisciotti sells Ravens" so yeah, internal hires forever it is.

[ravens82]

How so?

Every DC's scheme is "vulnerable" when you lose all your starting DBs.

I think Wink's scheme relies heavily on leaving corners on an island in man coverage. Just the loss of Peters was enough to cause significant issues. Once Marlon went down, it was over. Those are significant losses, but he didn't adapt well either. Clearly Harbaugh felt there were things they could have done differently. We'll see what Macdonald brings schematically. I am also interested to see how Wink does in NY without corners as good as Peters and Humphrey.

[leachisabeast]

Because he was given good players at Michigan and produced a good defense where the best players shined. Simple.

I however would have prefered an outsider to this bizzare grooming your replacment trend. Ozzie, Harbs and Cass more or less picking their successors. I'd prefer to see new faces and ideas challenging the status quo. That being said i dont ever want to read the words "Bisciotti sells Ravens" so yeah, internal hires forever it is.

How is it bizarre when the Ravens have consistently been very good on defense?

[QtR Nevermore]

I actually think wink under achieved with the group we had from 2018-2020, particularly 2020. I know we had injuries in 2020 and the covid crisis etc... but when you look at what we had on paper in 2020...

Judon, Bowser, Yannick, healthy Wolfe, Campbell, Peters, Humphrey, and a bunch of solid supporting cast type players that would start on almost every other roster in the league... I expect significantly better than what we got. We had games were we did look flat out dominant (the Bills and Titans games in the play offs come to mind)... but the consistency was just not there. And I think (just my opinion) a lot of that was on Wink.

This is nuts. Between 18-20 the Ravens were the number 1 overall defense in the entire NFL under Wink. (2nd, then 3rd, then 2nd overall.) How can that be an underachievement?

[ArgentinaRaven]

it seems that they just want to be right based on statistics made under unknown rules and without taking into account assignments, or defensive game plan.
Since the movie Moneyball, everyone analyzes everything with percentages, lines, formations, and that's fine up to a point.
when you don't hit the opposing quarterback, when you don't rush him, when your linebackers don't tackle for losing yards, when your cornerbacks don't break up passes, allow 4/5 yards or in key moments make dumb penalties.
when Td or big plays are allowed due to errors in communication and there are players left without marking anyone, yes many errors are individual but when they are repeated game by game it already happens to the coaches.
a Raven defense can't be afraid and prepare to limit Burrow/Chase, Henry or Mahomes.
They have to fear and prepare to face our defense.
Hell since Suggs we couldn't hit Big Ben with Villanueva from LT, do you get that? That's how bad the defense was.
Since Jimmy Smith tackling and knocking out Leon Bell on the lane that didn't jump out with a Raven defensive play and it was several years ago...
not everything is statistics

[Shas]

Why are we excited about Kyle Hamilton? Linderbaum? Ojabo?

It's okay to be skeptical about whether an untested NCAA player/coach will succeed. But why not assume he can? He has a good resume as an NFL assistant, with a bit of the Belichick coaching tree behind him...and he turned around a college program's pretty dramatically, pretty quickly.

I'm excited because, while everyone here bitched about Roman it was really defensive collapses under Wink that seemed to sink this team. So a change was needed. That doesn't make Macdonald better, but it does mean they are addressing a problem. Why not be optimistic? Every coordinator in the NFL, every single one of them from the worst to the best, had to get their first coordinator job somewhere.

[HotInHere]

I believe Wink was let go because of a the Ravens braintrust saw a change in direction around the league, and Wink's defense was not the right solution for that. Two things in particular: 1) QBs are getting rid of the ball much quicker, and 2) young QBs are much more pro-ready.

So when your pressure is coming from corners and safeties and other people off the line of scrimmage, it takes longer to get there. How many times last year did we see someone rushing from the outside get a free run, and still not get to the QB before he got rid of the ball? Which leads to point 2: a key component of Wink's defense is confusing the QB. QB doesn't know where the pressure is coming from, and people drop into zones they are not expecting, so they have to hold the ball, giving the rush time to get home. Rex's defense used to make QBs with less than two years of experience wet themselves. Even Peyton had to play the chess match. But with rules slanted to receivers, and young QBs coming in more pro-ready, that advantage isn't what it used to be.

Mike Mac was successful in generating pressure up the middle at Michigan. You gotta have the horses, but I think we will see much more of that this year.

But yeah, we really don't know what to expect from him. For years, everyone has complained about Harbs hiring re-treads, ol'boy network, he's "too afraid to have the hot young coordinator on his staff," etc. I remember a couple years ago when we were looking at one or both of our coordinators getting HC jobs, we were looking at who we had on staff who was considered a hot rising commodity. Mike Mac was really the only guy who stood out. (Now you could make the argument for Martin and and Williams too.)

Can't have it both ways. No one knew what Sean McVay would be, but that's the fun of hiring the young unknown.

[New !]

I didn’t think Winks coverages were all that great compared to others around the league. I thought they could have mixed in more zone especially with all the injuries. We did okay as far as scoring defense goes but we were near the bottom of the league in coverage. Maybe Harbaugh felt that there was more Wink should have done to prevent that. The league seems to be moving away from the kind of defense Wink likes to call. Whether McDonald will be different is not known but I don’t think they would have made the change if they expected him to call the exact same defense

[Bhcforlife]

The long and short of it is the Ravens have generally, for the most part (exceptions exist) never given me reason to question what they do defensively, especially at coordinator, where as long as I've been a fan they've never had an objectively bad one. For me it's as simple as that. That's why I believe in him.