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  1. #1

    Working under Socialism

    One of the myths that I see pop up about living in social democratic countries is that people will want to work less when the government provides more. Just looking at both the Unemployment Rates and Labor Participation Rates between the U.S. and Nordic countries show this to be false.

    U.S. Unemployment: 6.0%
    Nordic Countries: 6.4% - 7.4%

    Labor Force Participation U.S.: ~61%
    Nordic Countries: 71% - 88%

    So the U.S. has the slight edge in unemployment, Nordic countries blow the U.S. out of the water when it comes to labor force participation. I think this follows the studies that have shown time and time again that programs like UBI don't discourage work. Even logically, one would assume that a person receiving a meager UBI would be incentivized to find better work for themselves or even take time to be entrepreneurial (and btw, by the stats, entrepreneurship is at some of it's lowest levels in U.S. history).

    So while you may have whatever criticisms of social democracy you may have, the idea that the people in that system would work less is completely false. Most people find intrinsic meaning in working as a means to an end to provide. I believe it is God-given. That intrinsic feeling doesn't go away because of a social safety net.

    Another interesting thing about these countries is that some of them like Sweden have more billionaires per capita than the United States. And on top of that, the people that became billionaires didn't do it by inheriting wealth, they built companies from the ground up. Companies like H&M, Ikea, Aldi, Lidl, Tetra Pak, etc...

    You won't find articles or stats that show that it's hard to build a business or find work in these countries. The stats back it up all the way. That myth needs to end.





  2. #2

    Re: Working under Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by bandc View Post
    One of the myths that I see pop up about living in social democratic countries is that people will want to work less when the government provides more. Just looking at both the Unemployment Rates and Labor Participation Rates between the U.S. and Nordic countries show this to be false.

    U.S. Unemployment: 6.0%
    Nordic Countries: 6.4% - 7.4%

    Labor Force Participation U.S.: ~61%
    Nordic Countries: 71% - 88%

    So the U.S. has the slight edge in unemployment, Nordic countries blow the U.S. out of the water when it comes to labor force participation. I think this follows the studies that have shown time and time again that programs like UBI don't discourage work. Even logically, one would assume that a person receiving a meager UBI would be incentivized to find better work for themselves or even take time to be entrepreneurial (and btw, by the stats, entrepreneurship is at some of it's lowest levels in U.S. history).

    So while you may have whatever criticisms of social democracy you may have, the idea that the people in that system would work less is completely false. Most people find intrinsic meaning in working as a means to an end to provide. I believe it is God-given. That intrinsic feeling doesn't go away because of a social safety net.

    Another interesting thing about these countries is that some of them like Sweden have more billionaires per capita than the United States. And on top of that, the people that became billionaires didn't do it by inheriting wealth, they built companies from the ground up. Companies like H&M, Ikea, Aldi, Lidl, Tetra Pak, etc...

    You won't find articles or stats that show that it's hard to build a business or find work in these countries. The stats back it up all the way. That myth needs to end.
    The nordic nations are not socialist, they have very laissez faire capitalist economic models with expansive social safety nets.

    Socialism typically takes the form of government controlling or interfering with free markets, nationalizing industries, and subsidizing favored ones (green energy, anyone?). The Nordic countries don’t actually do much of those things. Yes, they offer government-paid healthcare, in some cases tuition-free university educations (and they limit the number of students per field btw), and rather generous social safety nets, all financed with high taxes.

    However, it is possible to do these things without interfering in the private sector more than required. It is allowing businesses to be productive that produces the high corporate and personal incomes that support the tax collections making the government benefits feasible. The Nordic countries are smart enough not to kill the goose that lays the golden egg.


    So again, they tax the shit out of you, but the economic model is left free and social safety nets are applied. Take it how you like it but I'll assume you're not too interested in paying 100% VAT tax on every new "unnecessary" purchase as deemed by the central govt.





  3. #3

    Re: Working under Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by BuryRaven View Post
    The nordic nations are not socialist, they have very laissez faire capitalist economic models with expansive social safety nets.

    Socialism typically takes the form of government controlling or interfering with free markets, nationalizing industries, and subsidizing favored ones (green energy, anyone?). The Nordic countries don’t actually do much of those things. Yes, they offer government-paid healthcare, in some cases tuition-free university educations (and they limit the number of students per field btw), and rather generous social safety nets, all financed with high taxes.

    However, it is possible to do these things without interfering in the private sector more than required. It is allowing businesses to be productive that produces the high corporate and personal incomes that support the tax collections making the government benefits feasible. The Nordic countries are smart enough not to kill the goose that lays the golden egg.


    So again, they tax the shit out of you, but the economic model is left free and social safety nets are applied. Take it how you like it but I'll assume you're not too interested in paying 100% VAT tax on every new "unnecessary" purchase as deemed by the central govt.
    You and many others in here have a very similar issue. You read things that I have never written. I specifically said "Social democracy." Social democracies, by definition, are ones that rely very much on aspects of capitalism while incorporating a healthy social safety net. I've never advocated for socialism.





  4. #4

    Re: Working under Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by BuryRaven View Post
    The nordic nations are not socialist, they have very laissez faire capitalist economic models with expansive social safety nets.

    Socialism typically takes the form of government controlling or interfering with free markets, nationalizing industries, and subsidizing favored ones (green energy, anyone?). The Nordic countries don’t actually do much of those things. Yes, they offer government-paid healthcare, in some cases tuition-free university educations (and they limit the number of students per field btw), and rather generous social safety nets, all financed with high taxes.

    However, it is possible to do these things without interfering in the private sector more than required. It is allowing businesses to be productive that produces the high corporate and personal incomes that support the tax collections making the government benefits feasible. The Nordic countries are smart enough not to kill the goose that lays the golden egg.


    So again, they tax the shit out of you, but the economic model is left free and social safety nets are applied. Take it how you like it but I'll assume you're not too interested in paying 100% VAT tax on every new "unnecessary" purchase as deemed by the central govt.
    I agree with the exact wording of everything you defined under that, but yes, I wouldn't mind paying a VAT tax in order to lessen income inequality and make the vast majority of American's lives better. I think everyone in those Nordic countries is very happy as well.





  5. #5

    Re: Working under Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by bandc View Post
    You and many others in here have a very similar issue. You read things that I have never written. I specifically said "Social democracy." Social democracies, by definition, are ones that rely very much on aspects of capitalism while incorporating a healthy social safety net. I've never advocated for socialism.
    It's almost like your title has nothing to do with what you proport.





  6. #6

    Re: Working under Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by bandc View Post
    I agree with the exact wording of everything you defined under that, but yes, I wouldn't mind paying a VAT tax in order to lessen income inequality and make the vast majority of American's lives better. I think everyone in those Nordic countries is very happy as well.
    Income inequality isn't an issue. You want to know an issue in our communities? 2 parent household inequality.





  7. #7
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    Re: Working under Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by BuryRaven View Post
    Income inequality isn't an issue. You want to know an issue in our communities? 2 parent household inequality.
    What is the single parent household rate in Nordic countries?


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Disclaimer: The content posted is of my own opinion.





  8. #8

    Re: Working under Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    What is the single parent household rate in Nordic countries?


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    It's quite high in Sweden, I only know their stats due to my thesis, its around 35-45% on a ten yr avg.





  9. #9
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    Re: Working under Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by BuryRaven View Post
    It's quite high in Sweden, I only know their stats due to my thesis, its around 35-45% on a ten yr avg.
    Daddy Gubberment


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Disclaimer: The content posted is of my own opinion.





  10. #10

    Re: Working under Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    Daddy Gubberment


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    When you replace a parent with the govt, this tends to occur across all nations. People always talk about nordic nations being so happy, yet 41% or Swedes report depression on a yearly basis.

    Something is amiss......





  11. #11

    Re: Working under Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by bandc View Post
    I agree with the exact wording of everything you defined under that, but yes, I wouldn't mind paying a VAT tax in order to lessen income inequality and make the vast majority of American's lives better. I think everyone in those Nordic countries is very happy as well.
    You’ll never get rid of income inequality. Its a non problem





  12. #12

    Re: Working under Socialism

    Quote Originally Posted by blah3 View Post
    You’ll never get rid of income inequality. Its a non problem
    Not until you get rid of skill inequality, work ethic inequality, effort inequality, and inequality in choosing what someone is willing to do for work.


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