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  1. #13
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    Re: Offensive cap allocation 2021-2024

    Quote Originally Posted by sflegend89 View Post
    They had Lamar on a rookie deal and still failed to spend around him
    DeCosta didn't inherit the greatest cap situation. I think there was a certain amount of deck-clearing these past two seasons (incl Flacco's contract).


    Quote Originally Posted by sflegend89 View Post
    Been banging on this drum as well.

    Ravens siphon money left, right, and center on defense and completely throw Lamar to the wolves with rookies and JAGs on the OL & WR – there needs to be a degree of balance. Right now they just ask WAYYY too much of a 24 year old QB who is still learning the game. The Chiefs don't even ask that much of Mahomes nor do the Bills with Josh Allen. Something needs to change drastically about how this team constructs rosters.
    Something will. Lamar is going to get max money; Ronnie Stanley is already getting max money; Mark Andrews is going to command a big contract. I wouldn't be shocked if Zeus Deuce gets one from us also, despite all this trade noise.

    Also from a pure cap perspective, free agent dollars go further on defense then they do on offense. I suspect the long-term plan is to spend money on home-grown players on offense, and bring in free-agents only on the D side, except for some short term "veteran leader" types here & there like Mark Ingram or Willie Snead.

    That said, if there's any offseason for the Ravens to snag a FA WR, it might be this one. So many anticipated cap casualties.





  2. #14

    Re: Offensive cap allocation 2021-2024

    Quote Originally Posted by HotInHere View Post
    I like the way you broke it down. Diving a little further, let's look at Ravens offensive roster makeup:

    QB 3
    RB 4
    TE 2
    WR 4
    OL 8

    That's basically 21 offensive players to carry. (Your mileage may vary -- some guys I'm considering special teams guys, like Chris Moore.) But 21 is a workable number.

    Effectively in this offense, you have 3 RBs (counting Ricard,) and at least 3 WRs who are going to see significant snaps, along with the two TEs. So that's eight players plus the QB and five lineman, so let's say there are 13 positions on offense that you have to get quality play out of. The other 8 offensive players you can get journeymen or UDFA's to fill in. Let's assume you can get them all an average of $1MM each (even though it will actually be more.)

    So how much cap space do we have? Looking at your numbers for 2023 as an example:

    Cap is 240MM. If you take out $10MM for ST players, and split the rest between offense and defense, you've got $115MM to spend on your offense.

    As you say, we've got $91MM accounted for five players. $8MM more for your remaining journeymen. That leaves $16MM for your remaining 8 essential players on offense. If you have re-signed Orlando Brown at a market level contract, that eats up that $16MM (at least) and leaves you with zero dollars for your remaining seven offensive positions.

    That's why people are saying we can't afford it.

    Anything *could* be done. It's a question of what else we are giving up. As it stands right now, based on your numbers, we don't have enough money to field a professional offense in 2023. But of course some things will change, some players will be let go, some contracts will be restructured.

    If we draft really well on defense the next few years, and other young defensive players pan out, we can move even more cap space to the offensive side of the ball. But how much? Could we get another $10MM? $20MM? It's still not enough to pay Orlando and keep the other five players you mentioned.
    So what you are saying the Ravens can't afford another big contract on the entire offense for the next 4 years, and the rest must be filler on rookie deals? The point you are missing, and why 2023...and 2023 only......leaves us with little to spend, is I have 2 guys on there who could very reasonably not be on the roster at that point taking up 23m. Or they could be on roster, but with much lower cap numbers. But using that one year while ignoring the other 3 out of the next 4 doesn't exactly prove we can't afford another big deal because we absolutely can. You could take some cap from either year on the front side or back side of 2023 to even it out if you really had to. I mean in 2022 we will only have 50m to spare, and 2024 could have similar amount (if not more)

    Look at it like this. "Offensive cap" over next 4 years, and how much we are under:

    2021 - (80m) - 45m under
    2022 - (110m) - 55m under
    2023 - (115m) - 24m under
    2024 - (120m) - 42m under

    So they average 42m a year under over next 4 years. And let's not forget there isn't an actual offensive cap! And I know it would be blasphemous but they COULD actually spend 5-10....or 40m more like they do on the defense year in and year out! Novel concept I know.
    Last edited by MidtownP; 02-17-2021 at 05:48 PM.





  3. #15

    Re: Offensive cap allocation 2021-2024

    Quote Originally Posted by sflegend89 View Post
    Been banging on this drum as well.

    Ravens siphon money left, right, and center on defense and completely throw Lamar to the wolves with rookies and JAGs on the OL & WR... there needs to be a degree of balance. Right now they just ask WAYYY too much of a 24 year old QB who is still learning the game. The Chiefs don't even ask that much of Mahomes nor do the Bills with Josh Allen. Something needs to change drastically about how this team constructs rosters.

    They had Lamar on a rookie deal and still failed to spend around him.. cap is only going to get tighter after his big contract hits the books. It's worrying.
    A lot of it is organizational philosophy. They have no problem paying multiple corners big money (and secondary in general). Same for the Dline. Want no parts of paying a high priced WR, never have and never will. Same with interior Oline, they will always try to "get by" there. Like you said I would just like a little more balance, nothing crazy but let's just get even and put our QB in best position to succeed. Oline is so important.





  4. #16
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    Re: Offensive cap allocation 2021-2024

    Quote Originally Posted by MidtownP View Post
    A lot of it is organizational philosophy. ... Want no parts of paying a high priced WR, never have and never will.
    If Marquise makes the Pro Bowl; or somehow Miles Boykin; or Duvernay; or say the Ravens came out of the draft with someone like Kadarius Toney or Sage Surrat, and he becomes a Pro Bowler; they would pay him at contract time.

    They'd pay a WR. What they won't do is bid for a high-priced FA WR.


    Quote Originally Posted by MidtownP View Post
    Same with interior Oline, they will always try to "get by" there.
    Marshall Yanda had cap numbers over $9M each of his last three season; $10.1M in '18. He was an even higher percentage of cap in 2013-14; over 6% both years, with cap numbers of $7.5M and $8.5M.

    They'll pay their Pro Bowlers.



    It's worth noting that DeCosta is not as patient as Ozzie was. Not even close. He does not like to wait & see; he does not think things are likely to work out. DeCosta thinks problems get fixed when you fucking FIX them. He attacks problems.

    I can see him watching our snapping problems over the back half of the season, and our inability to anchor against the Bills rush, and saying "This is bullshit." Making some moves, either higher draft pick then we expect or mid-tier FA.





  5. #17
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    Re: Offensive cap allocation 2021-2024

    Quote Originally Posted by MidtownP View Post
    A lot of it is organizational philosophy. They have no problem paying multiple corners big money (and secondary in general). Same for the Dline. Want no parts of paying a high priced WR, never have and never will. Same with interior Oline, they will always try to "get by" there. Like you said I would just like a little more balance, nothing crazy but let's just get even and put our QB in best position to succeed. Oline is so important.
    There is an ebb and flow to these things.

    Go back to 2013. All the big money was on offense. Suggs and Ngata were getting paid on defense. But Flacco, Rice, Yanda, Oher, Jacoby Jones, and Eugene Monroe were all getting PAID. Pitta would get paid a shit-ton the following year, and Flacco's number went way up. All the money was in the offense. Why?

    The great and expensive defensive players retired. The good young ones like Art Jones, McPhee, etc., we couldn't afford to keep -- because we were spending all the money on the offense.

    So the defense got young and cheap, and would have gotten younger and cheaper but for some misfires in personnel (particularly safety.) Because that's what happens when you rebuild a unit.

    Fast forward to today. Same thing happening with the offense. Had to rebuild with young/cheap. If you do it right (as we clearly did) you end up with a bunch of guys in the prime of their careers looking at big paydays. But how far are you willing to go with that rebuild?

    Just like when we had to let some of our young developing defensive players go because they priced themselves out of Baltimore (lie Z Smith and CJ
    Mosely) we're also not going to be able to keep all the pieces of our offensive rebuild -- like Orlando Brown.
    "Chin up, chest out."





  6. #18
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    Re: Offensive cap allocation 2021-2024

    Quote Originally Posted by MidtownP View Post
    So what you are saying the Ravens can't afford another big contract on the entire offense for the next 4 years, and the rest must be filler on rookie deals? The point you are missing, and why 2023...and 2023 only......leaves us with little to spend, is I have 2 guys on there who could very reasonably not be on the roster at that point taking up 23m. Or they could be on roster, but with much lower cap numbers. But using that one year while ignoring the other 3 out of the next 4 doesn't exactly prove we can't afford another big deal because we absolutely can. You could take some cap from either year on the front side or back side of 2023 to even it out if you really had to. I mean in 2022 we will only have 50m to spare, and 2024 could have similar amount (if not more)

    Look at it like this. "Offensive cap" over next 4 years, and how much we are under:

    2021 - (80m) - 45m under
    2022 - (110m) - 55m under
    2023 - (115m) - 24m under
    2024 - (120m) - 42m under

    So they average 42m a year under over next 4 years. And let's not forget there isn't an actual offensive cap! And I know it would be blasphemous but they COULD actually spend 5-10....or 40m more like they do on the defense year in and year out! Novel concept I know.
    Good stuff.

    Here's why I focused on 2023: because 2021 and 2022 don't really matter. Lamar doesn't start getting real expensive until then, and that's when you have to pay Hollywood (or replace him.)

    But the fact is that if you sign Orlando, you're not signing him to a two-year deal. He will be here in 2023, and getting paid a lot of money. So will Stanley. So other things may change, but the bottom line is in 2023 you're paying your tackles close to $40MM -- or about 1/6 of your cap, with your QB taking up another 1/6.

    Can you do that? Sure. Should you? Probably not.

    Let's assume we sign Orlando, but we don't re-sign Hollywood and Boyle. Now you're paying:
    Lamar (35m), Andrews (13m), Stanley (20.25), OBrown (let's call it 18.) That's a total of $86MM.

    If you can get your defense down to half the cap, you have $115MM to spend. $8MM is gone for your JAGs to fill out your roster, assuming you don't want anybody who is worth more than vet min at backup QB, TE3, WR4, or any of your o-line depth. That leaves $21MM for nine players, or about $2.2MM per.

    Now at this point, you have no WRs because you let Hollywood go. You have one TE. You have Dobbins (who is going to get paid the following year) and no other RBs. Are you paying Bozeman? Ricard? Who's your center? Who's your RG?

    Even if things go really well on the defensive side of the ball, and you have an extra $10MM or $20MM to play with, it's not enough. You're going to have some serious trouble trying to avoid major holes in your roster.

    It's the 80/20 rule. Can we find a RT who is 80% as good as Orlando for $3-4MM? A draft pick? Tyre Phillips?
    "Chin up, chest out."





  7. #19
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    Re: Offensive cap allocation 2021-2024

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    I agree with the point of this thread.

    Think back to 2013. Flacco signed a new deal and the team asked Boldin to take a paycut. Mind you, Bolton’s salary for that upcoming season was only 8 million dollars. Think about it, they fire Cameron, promote Caldwell, Caldwell finally utilizes Boldin properly, you get THAT result, and then ask the man to take a two million dollar paycut.

    And the narrative was that Flacco took all of the money. When, in actuality, his 2013 cap number was under 10 million.

    It was under 10 million and they traded his best WR, didn’t move up for Hopkins in 13’, didn’t draft a WR in the 14’ WR draft until moving back into it for Campanaro and then forced the WR pick in 15’ (Perriman), but it was Flacco’s contract that kept the team from building around him.

    When you look at how much money this team has long spent on defense, the narrative is such a crock.
    Ex, IIRC Boldin's $alary was only going to be $6 mil. and Ozzie wanted to cut that to $4mil. IIRC again, it was the last year of a 4-year, $28 mil. contract. It was as stupid then as it would be now... Bc

    P.S. - "Q" went on to have 4 more productive NFL seasons after leaving Baltimore.





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