Free speech or Truth

**CarrollCoRaven** · 02-11-2021, 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Ortizer

Scientific studies also have a weird tendency to align with the interests of whoever is providing the funding in many cases.

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Are you saying science is for sale?

**Forgettable1** · 02-11-2021, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by Ortizer

Scientific studies also have a weird tendency to align with the interests of whoever is providing the funding in many cases.

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You could go deeper than that.

Objective knowledge -- not merely science -- aligns with the interests of whoever holds societal power -- not merely who provides the funding.

There is no objective truth or if there is it is unknowable. So, instead, what we call "truth" or "science" is really just the acceptable narrative of today's dominant class.

2+2=5 if I can convince you that 5 is just another way of saying or knowing the concept of 4. In other words, if I have the power to reshape meaning.

**NCRAVEN** · 02-11-2021, 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by Forgettable1

You could go deeper than that.

Objective knowledge -- not merely science -- aligns with the interests of whoever holds societal power -- not merely who provides the funding.

There is no objective truth or if there is it is unknowable. So, instead, what we call "truth" or "science" is really just the acceptable narrative of today's dominant class.

2+2=5 if I can convince you that 5 is just another way of saying or knowing the concept of 4. In other words, if I have the power to reshape meaning.

There is objective truth or that statement can’t be true. And if it’s true that statement can’t be true than there is truth.

**Forgettable1** · 02-11-2021, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by NCRAVEN

There is objective truth or that statement can’t be true. And if it’s true that statement can’t be true than there is truth.

Logic is a tool of the dominant class to justify its dominance. Logic ignores and discounts other ways of knowing.

Logic is bad, mmkay. ;-)

Neither you nor Harcourt Fenton Mudd can deprogram the robot because the robot changes languages, changes the input, upon being threatened.

**NCRAVEN** · 02-11-2021, 10:14 PM

Originally Posted by Forgettable1

Logic is a tool of the dominant class to justify its dominance. Logic ignores and discounts other ways of knowing.

Logic is bad, mmkay. ;-)

Bit of circular logic, eh?

If logic is used by the dominant class, is stupidity the tool of the ignorant to stay ignorant?

Originally Posted by Forgettable1

Neither you nor Harcourt Fenton Mudd can deprogram the robot because the robot changes languages, changes the input, upon being threatened.

I have no idea what this means

**Don Frye's Moustache** · 02-11-2021, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by NCRAVEN

Bit of circular logic, eh?

If logic is used by the dominant class, is stupidity the tool of the ignorant to stay ignorant?

I have no idea what this means

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudd%27s_Women

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**NCRAVEN** · 02-11-2021, 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by Don Frye's Moustache

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mudd%27s_Women

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No that comment makes even less sense!

**Forgettable1** · 02-11-2021, 11:24 PM

Originally Posted by NCRAVEN

No that comment makes even less sense!

Perhaps it's because Mr. Moustache, in his effort to be gracious effort to be helpful, directed you to the wrong Star Trek episode. Rather than Mudd's Women, the scene I alluded to was from I, Mudd. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I,_Mudd

The scene itself can be found here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzVxsYzXI_Y

Hopefully, this makes sense to you (if not poor, poor Norman).

**NCRAVEN** · 02-12-2021, 12:05 AM

Originally Posted by Forgettable1

Perhaps it's because Mr. Moustache, in his effort to be gracious effort to be helpful, directed you to the wrong Star Trek episode. Rather than Mudd's Women, the scene I alluded to was from I, Mudd. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I,_Mudd

The scene itself can be found here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzVxsYzXI_Y

Hopefully, this makes sense to you (if not poor, poor Norman).

So if everything he says is a lie than so is that, a paradox - so what?

What does that have to do with no objective truth?

**Forgettable1** · 02-12-2021, 09:34 AM

Originally Posted by NCRAVEN

So if everything he says is a lie than so is that, a paradox - so what?

What does that have to do with no objective truth?

It has to do with logic being a tool to finding objective truth, as opposed to logic being merely a tool of the master to justify his position atop the mountain.

The point I was trying to make (in a humorous effort to agree with you) is that even the claim that logic is unjustifiable, -- logic is just a convenient tool of the master -- requires or employs logic. The people who argue against using logic eventually end up like poor Norman in the clip: tangled in their loop.

**NCRAVEN** · 02-12-2021, 09:54 AM

Originally Posted by Forgettable1

It has to do with logic being a tool to finding objective truth, as opposed to logic being merely a tool of the master to justify his position atop the mountain.

The point I was trying to make (in a humorous effort to agree with you) is that even the claim that logic is unjustifiable, -- logic is just a convenient tool of the master -- requires or employs logic. The people who argue against using logic eventually end up like poor Norman in the clip: tangled in their loop.

I see, and agreed.

Even if someone says that truth is used by the powerful or the dominant class to assert their dominance (paraphrasing what you said earlier), well... than if that statement is true, than so is that and I don't have to listen to it. And if it isn't true than I don't have to listen to it either.