Off-season moves in these four areas

[jonboy79]

No.

But can't we agree that the team has lacked an elite WR for a long time, and the difference between not having one and not having an elite center is very different. I think the team has proven over the years that they have been able to get by with all sorts of approaches at center, and still been pretty effective, but WR is a sore spot.

Put it this way, if the choice is a big upgrade at WR or C, I'm going with WR, and it's not even close. And there are always choices like this that are very real for front offices.

So we agree on the first sentence, and nothing else.

WR is one of the least important positions on a football field. Elite WR’s rarely if ever play on Sb winners and contenders and vice versa. Elite WR’s play for bad teams coming from behind to pad stats. The history of the league bares this out, despite this one single anomalous Eason we are currently watching.

I’d much rather have a big upgrade at Center. Watching and rewatching our playoff loss and clips on all 22 makes me feel that the bad snaps and pass pro were more important than adding more wide open WR’s Lamar couldn’t find.

The game is won in the trenches not on the wings by players that can’t do anything until someone else makes the play for them.

So yes, we have lacked elite WR talent because it is good asset allocation and we are a team generally playing with the lead and winning games.


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[jonboy79]

Bozeman to center is another option I forgot to include with TCC, Merkari and Bredesen.

Here' question for the group, if you are going to consider trading Brown, what about Stanley? Would they bring equal value? Might Stanley bring even more as a "proven" LT commodity? Are we convinced that Brown could be just as effective as Stanley, and more long term? I like both, but I like Brown's attitude, FWIW.

We JUST signed Stanley to a monster deal, we are welded to that guy for at least 3 years no matter what.


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[jonboy79]

This whole season would've went in the crapper after Stanley went down without Zeus Jr. I wouldn't be so quick to dump a 25 year old 2 time pro bowl OT with his versatility. He's a core player in my opinion.

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I think I have come to the conclusion I wsnt to pay Z2 LT money to play RT and manage in the middle with mid round draft picks. This also likely means Andrew’s departs and no money for a “true #1 WR”.


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[Shas]

I’d much rather have a big upgrade at Center...The game is won in the trenches not on the wings by players that can’t do anything until someone else makes the play for them.

I think I have come to the conclusion I [want] to pay Z2 LT money to play RT and manage in the middle with mid round draft picks.

Huh?

If giving Zeus a contract means you can't have interior lineman, the importance of which you just argued, and you also can't keep a top tight end nor sign a free agent wide receiver...which is the scenario you just painted...that would be nuts to sign Brown. But that strikes me as a false choice.

Look, I get your point that having a solid offensive line is imperative to a good passing game. I am an offensive line aficionado, so I won't argue against that. But I see things differently here on a few levels.

First, let's not be overly dramatic about how little they will be able to do in futures cap years. As it stands, they will have upwards of $150MM in spare cap room in 2022--which is the time period we are essentially debating-- as they make decisions on their '21, '22 or '23 UFAs. That gives them a decent amount of flexibility to plan ahead. That includes significant players like,

2021: Judon, Ngakoue, Snead, Wolfe, Skura, Ward, McPhee
2022: Jackson*, O. Brown, Bozeman, Andrews, Campbell, Williams, Boyle, Ricard, Averette
2023: Peters, M. Brown, Powers, Young, Koch

* Team holds a fifth year option in 2022 and he could play for the average of the top 3rd-32nd '21 QB salaries, but it sounds like they plan on extending him in 2021.

Anyway, point being, I think they have a lot of cap room to bring back a good number of these players. Also, keep in mind there are two drafts between now and the 2022 season, so figure they are a good bet to add, let's say six significant contributors to the roster at positions like center, WR, EDGE, DT, etc.

I don't think it's unreasonable to think they can pay Stanley, O. Brown, Bozeman, Jackson, M. Brown, and Andrews on the offensive side of the ball, and be okay using cheaper, but decent talent at the other two line positions. They have a history of doing pretty well getting solid contributors out mid to late round interior linemen and UDFAs. Whereas they have zero history of doing the same with receivers.

Finally, the crux of your argument is that improving the passing game must start with the offensive line...and even an elite WR won't succeed if they don't address the offensive line.

My contention is that most observers do not point to the offensive line as the issue that is holding back Roman's passing game. While there were breakdowns against the Bills, it was not the issue that held them back all year. Most observers point to a lack of creativity in the route designs and receivers who do not reliably get separation or make reliable catches.

I am open minded about Boykin still, despite what people who want to speak for me say to the contrary. And I am anxious to see more of Duverney. But I don't see how bringing back that same receiver room—even with maybe adding another third round project receiver—will be vastly helped simply by making a big upgrade at the center position.

[jonboy79]

Huh?

If giving Zeus a contract means you can't have interior lineman, the importance of which you just argued, and you also can't keep a top tight end nor sign a free agent wide receiver...which is the scenario you just painted...that would be nuts to sign Brown. But that strikes me as a false choice.

Look, I get your point that having a solid offensive line is imperative to a good passing game. I am an offensive line aficionado, so I won't argue against that. But I see things differently here on a few levels.

First, let's not be overly dramatic about how little they will be able to do in futures cap years. As it stands, they will have upwards of $150MM in spare cap room in 2022--which is the time period we are essentially debating-- as they make decisions on their '21, '22 or '23 UFAs. That gives them a decent amount of flexibility to plan ahead. That includes significant players like,

2021: Judon, Ngakoue, Snead, Wolfe, Skura, Ward, McPhee
2022: Jackson*, O. Brown, Bozeman, Andrews, Campbell, Williams, Boyle, Ricard, Averette
2023: Peters, M. Brown, Powers, Young, Koch

* Team holds a fifth year option in 2022 and he could play for the average of the top 3rd-32nd '21 QB salaries, but it sounds like they plan on extending him in 2021.

Anyway, point being, I think they have a lot of cap room to bring back a good number of these players. Also, keep in mind there are two drafts between now and the 2022 season, so figure they are a good bet to add, let's say six significant contributors to the roster at positions like center, WR, EDGE, DT, etc.

I don't think it's unreasonable to think they can pay Stanley, O. Brown, Bozeman, Jackson, M. Brown, and Andrews on the offensive side of the ball, and be okay using cheaper, but decent talent at the other two line positions. They have a history of doing pretty well getting solid contributors out mid to late round interior linemen and UDFAs. Whereas they have zero history of doing the same with receivers.

Finally, the crux of your argument is that improving the passing game must start with the offensive line...and even an elite WR won't succeed if they don't address the offensive line.

My contention is that most observers do not point to the offensive line as the issue that is holding back Roman's passing game. While there were breakdowns against the Bills, it was not the issue that held them back all year. Most observers point to a lack of creativity in the route designs and receivers who do not reliably get separation or make reliable catches.

I am open minded about Boykin still, despite what people who want to speak for me say to the contrary. And I am anxious to see more of Duverney. But I don't see how bringing back that same receiver room—even with maybe adding another third round project receiver—will be vastly helped simply by making a big upgrade at the center position.

We aren’t far off at all here. I suppose I should have put “even if that means” in my post. Do we need to resign ourselves to the fact that we can’t re-sign anyone? No, but even if... I would sign Z2 because a top end tackle Duo, for this team, is supremely important.
The OL isn’t holding Lamar back currently but it might be if we lost Z2.
I would love to draft agreed Humphrey, but we may be almost forced into using that pick at OLB and if the value is there I’m ok with that.


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[veritas]

I'm not sure why you hire a passing game coordinator and pay someone else to do half the OC's job. The fact that people are discussing this tells you how inadequate Roman is.

[Shas]

I'm not sure why you hire a passing game coordinator and pay someone else to do half the OC's job. The fact that people are discussing this tells you how inadequate Roman is.

If that's true then nearly every offensive coordinator in the NFL is inadequate, because nearly every team has a passing game or running game coordinator to supplement what the OC does. There are teams whose passing game coordinators are also their DB coaches, because their focus is on that part of the chessboard. They focus on innovative ways to get an edge in a narrow field of focus, and the coordinator focuses on weaving that intelligence into his battle plans and calling plays on game day.

Seems like a good idea to me, rather than a reason to criticize the coordinator.

I think it's also reason to doubt the suggest that Roman is the problem, and why I've turned my attention to Culley to wonder if he is more of the issue. Unless Roman just isn't listening to him.

My inclination is to keep the guy who built a top ten offense, but get him a better intelligence officer when it comes to the passing game, or someone he trusts and will listen to.

[veritas]

If that's true then nearly every offensive coordinator in the NFL is inadequate, because nearly every team has a passing game or running game coordinator to supplement what the OC does. There are teams whose passing game coordinators are also their DB coaches, because their focus is on that part of the chessboard. They focus on innovative ways to get an edge in a narrow field of focus, and the coordinator focuses on weaving that intelligence into his battle plans and calling plays on game day.

Seems like a good idea to me, rather than a reason to criticize the coordinator.

I think it's also reason to doubt the suggest that Roman is the problem, and why I've turned my attention to Culley to wonder if he is more of the issue. Unless Roman just isn't listening to him.

My inclination is to keep the guy who built a top ten offense, but get him a better intelligence officer when it comes to the passing game, or someone he trusts and will listen to.

Roman showed in SF that he's a run game guy first and last. He's following that script here as well. He benefited by having two highly mobile QB's who could dazzle the opposition for a while but when that is figured out and it becomes apparent how lacking the pass game is, you end up with 12 PPG like we've gotten for three playoff games now. Roman's MO is to have a top ranked run game and lower half or near the bottom passing game.

That imbalance doesn't work. It works even less than a highly successful pass game with a mediocre run game, especially if you have a top tier passer. Coaching redundancy may be fashionable in the NFL but if your OC can't cut it, it matters little what the other guys are whispering in his ear. If you have to surround your OC with another 1-2 "specialist" coordinators in order to look like you know what you're doing, then you need a new OC. We saw how dramatic a difference an OC could make when Kubiak took over and how the pass game cratered after he left. Roman hasn't shown he has the ability to adjust and overcome now that opponents have his scheme well figured out.

[Shas]

imbalance doesn't work. It works even less than a highly successful pass game with a mediocre run game, especially if you have a top tier passer. Coaching redundancy may be fashionable in the NFL but if your OC can't cut it, it matters little what the other guys are whispering in his ear.

I'd ask how Tampa is doing with their top passing and shitty running game.

Sounds like you already decided Roman can't cut it, and it won't matter what brainpower they bring into help the passing game. I get it. Your mind is made up.

We differ on that point. I'd like to see what effort is put into innovating the passing game, in terms of scheme, coaching and personnel, and then see how Roman manages these new resources.

That's why this board exists.

[veritas]

I'd ask how Tampa is doing with their top passing and shitty running game.

Sounds like you already decided Roman can't cut it, and it won't matter what brainpower they bring into help the passing game. I get it. Your mind is made up.

We differ on that point. I'd like to see what effort is put into innovating the passing game, in terms of scheme, coaching and personnel, and then see how Roman manages these new resources.

That's why this board exists.

I was perfectly willing to give Roman a fair trial. He's been a wizard with the run game but that only lasts up to a point if you can't add anything to it. Under 12 PPG in three playoff games is fairly abominable especially when you consider the defense allowed a measly 11.5 PPG in two games this year. Under just about any scenario outside of total offensive failure, that should be two wins. As for TB, they are where they are because they have Brady and not Lamar. That's not a knock on Lamar. It's just reality.

[Shas]

I was perfectly willing to give Roman a fair trial. ...Under 12 PPG in three playoff games is fairly abominable

I agree that the offensive performance has been a crime.

But if the jury lays convicts Roman for this crime, it wasn't a fair trial.

Lamar has pressed and played poorly in all these losses. As I've stated, the line was a sieve on Saturday. The center couldn't snap. The special teams were horrible. there were dumb penalties.

Roman needs to do better to improve the passing game, but that's not the primary reason they are losing these games. He's being tried unfairly

[Shas]

So we agree on the first sentence, and nothing else.

WR is one of the least important positions on a football field. Elite WR’s rarely if ever play on Sb winners and contenders and vice versa. Elite WR’s play for bad teams coming from behind to pad stats. The history of the league bares this out, despite this one single anomalous Eason we are currently watching.

I’d much rather have a big upgrade at Center. Watching and rewatching our playoff loss and clips on all 22 makes me feel that the bad snaps and pass pro were more important than adding more wide open WR’s Lamar couldn’t find.

The game is won in the trenches not on the wings by players that can’t do anything until someone else makes the play for them.

Looks like John Harbaugh agrees with you. In his presser today he called improving the offensive line a "major priority...priority one."

He also said Roman would be back and they just need to become more efficient in the passing game.

I'll wait to see what changes are coming among assistants. We know two have already left for college jobs (Minter, Macdonald)...and at least two more are in play (Hewitt, Cullen and possibly Culley, which is the one I am most interested in replacing).