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  1. #25

    Re: Trump fallout links

    Quote Originally Posted by HbgPARavenfan View Post
    protests that turned violent and destructive over racial injustice vs literal attempts to disrupt democracy......Literal treason

    Yeah both equal.
    Our country only exists and can continue to function based on the universally held belief that our elections are free and fair. Everything, including civil rights guaranteed by our government, flow from that.

    The T word and similar terms were used a lot the last 4 years by many to describe the excesses of the previous administration in investigating the then incoming Trump admin. How could people not see this was a "coup" attempt?... is something I recall hearing a lot.

    It was described to me like this. If you think you are protecting the country/world from hitler then fudging a 302 form isn't treason, it's patriotism.

    Here's a scenario for you. If you thought Republican governors and election officials in purple states cheated in an election and you knew it was fraudulent would you do nothing?

    I think this rally was an attempt a a political spectacle that just got out of hand. I also think the people there had something as important as "social justice" to be upset about. They truly believe the election was fraudulent. If you make the assumption it was (I'm not, this is a hypothetical) then is marching on the capital treasonous or patriotic?

    I have to say I completely disagree with you here. I resigned myself to Biden being president a long time ago so I feel like I am in a position to see the stunning double movie going on here and peoples biases and huge blind spots on display.

    What Trump did showed a stunning lack of imagination and was akin to shouting fire in a crowded movie theater. He bears much of the blame for what happened. I think as with the things we saw this summer you had people very upset about something incredibly important (in this case the cornerstone of our democracy, our election process) and you had some bad actors that that escalated it.
    Last edited by BustOfPallas; 01-08-2021 at 10:33 AM.





  2. #26
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    Re: Trump fallout links

    Quote Originally Posted by BustOfPallas View Post
    Our country only exists and can continue to function based on the universally held belief that our elections are free and fair. Everything, including civil rights guaranteed by our government, flow from that.

    The T word and similar terms were used a lot the last 4 years by many to describe the excesses of the previous administration in investigating the then incoming Trump admin. How could people not see this was a "coup" attempt?... is something I recall hearing a lot.

    It was described to me like this. If you think you are protecting the country/world from hitler then fudging a 302 form isn't treason, it's patriotism.

    Here's a scenario for you. If you thought Republican governors and election officials in purple states cheated in an election and you knew it was fraudulent would you do nothing?

    I think this rally was an attempt a a political spectacle that just got out of hand. I also think the people there had something as important as "social justice" to be upset about. They truly believe the election was fraudulent. If you make the assumption it was (I'm not, this is a hypothetical) then is marching on the capital treasonous or patriotic?

    I have to say I completely disagree with you here. I resigned myself to Biden being president a long time ago so I feel like I am in a position to see the stunning double movie going on here and peoples biases and huge blind spots on display.

    What Trump did showed a stunning lack of imagination and was akin to shouting fire in a crowded movie theater. He bears much of the blame for what happened. I think as with the things we saw this summer you had people very upset about something incredibly important (in this case the cornerstone of our democracy, our election process) and you had some bad actors that that escalated it.


    Good post.





  3. #27

    Re: Trump fallout links

    Quote Originally Posted by Terpsfan82 View Post


    Good post.
    If we want to move forward together, heal and all that, we have to try to understand one another. Where people are coming from. No one thinks they are bad.

    There are some people though that ARE bad. Idiots. That can tar everyone around them.

    I saw that dynamic last Summer. I saw videos of black people furious at vandals, looters.... Little peroxide haired idiots busting up cars. I think one of them got his ass kicked by an NBA player in one of the videos.

    What you see happening is people using that to try to further their own political goals i.e. BLM protestors are all terrorists ... All Trump supporters are terrorists.... Neither is true.

    I don't know. I think Biden should be more gracious. Anyone that hit a police or broke anything in the capital should be charged. Anyone that just wandered in there.... meh. I think it was a mixed crowd of regular joes and some fringe Trump supporters personally. If Biden wants to win people over he can strike a grace not here. I'm not sure he will though. I think they want to go the political rout and use this to wipe MAGA off the face of the planet, bust up that coalition and drive it into the ground. I think it's political though.





  4. #28

    Re: Trump fallout links

    I am seeing a police is dead. Awful. Trump is done.

    You can't walk that back.





  5. #29
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    Re: Trump fallout links

    Fullest extent of the law. I have always felt that those who burned buildings and began looting were a mixture of extremists looking for reasons to cause chaos, and opportunists who cared not one wit about racial injustice. That was not the answer, is not the answer and will not be the answer. I wanted them all arrested and thrown in prison, and I said that here.

    Conversely, Everyone involved in this needs to be arrested and I say again, the fullest extent of the Law. If you were in that building, you need to go. That may not mean you are a bad person. That may just mean that you got caught up in the moment. That said, in this country, to be frank, we've never wanted to hear it, nor do we now, and I don't think we ever should.

    There has been proven fraud in just about every Presidential election we have ever had. This one was no different. The reality, however, is that, much like the rest, it is on such a minute scale that it won't come close to over-turning an election. Trump took that reality that we all knew, and turned the volume up on it ten-fold, to cause a fracture within our country. He then, after being full of military response rhetoric and strong words following the riots in the summer, told these people that he loved them, they are special and FALSELY took credit for calling in the National Guard, when it was Pence who called in the National Guard. He got them rev'd up at a rally with his talks about marching down to the Capitol and even worse, his talk of taking things back "With strength". As we've established, yes, that many people could easily make it to the Capitol in a half hour, from where the rally was.

    That these people actually thought they were right, does not change the reality of what they did and what they are. When a man from another country and culture, beats the crap out of his wife, and argues that it was allowed in his country, we, in so many words, inform him that we don't do that here legally Sir. When some wack-job environmental extremist pulls some crazy stunt, because they think they are doing good, we inform them that, no, good sir or Ma'am, you are a terrorist, because these are terroristic acts.

    These people did what they did and they are what they are.
    "Please take with you this final sword, The Excellector. I am praying that your journey will be guided by the light", Leon Shore





  6. #30

    Re: Trump fallout links

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    Fullest extent of the law. I have always felt that those who burned buildings and began looting were a mixture of extremists looking for reasons to cause chaos, and opportunists who cared not one wit about racial injustice. That was not the answer, is not the answer and will not be the answer. I wanted them all arrested and thrown in prison, and I said that here.

    Conversely, Everyone involved in this needs to be arrested and I say again, the fullest extent of the Law. If you were in that building, you need to go. That may not mean you are a bad person. That may just mean that you got caught up in the moment. That said, in this country, to be frank, we've never wanted to hear it, nor do we now, and I don't think we ever should.

    There has been proven fraud in just about every Presidential election we have ever had. This one was no different. The reality, however, is that, much like the rest, it is on such a minute scale that it won't come close to over-turning an election. Trump took that reality that we all knew, and turned the volume up on it ten-fold, to cause a fracture within our country. He then, after being full of military response rhetoric and strong words following the riots in the summer, told these people that he loved them, they are special and FALSELY took credit for calling in the National Guard, when it was Pence who called in the National Guard. He got them rev'd up at a rally with his talks about marching down to the Capitol and even worse, his talk of taking things back "With strength". As we've established, yes, that many people could easily make it to the Capitol in a half hour, from where the rally was.

    That these people actually thought they were right, does not change the reality of what they did and what they are. When a man from another country and culture, beats the crap out of his wife, and argues that it was allowed in his country, we, in so many words, inform him that we don't do that here legally Sir. When some wack-job environmental extremist pulls some crazy stunt, because they think they are doing good, we inform them that, no, good sir or Ma'am, you are a terrorist, because these are terroristic acts.

    These people did what they did and they are what they are.
    Ahhh the rule of law. No excuses. I would say that is correct and sounds familiar but looking backwards the last year or so it does not. If a capitol police held the door open for you or you did not see any police being beat or vandalism occurring but followed a bunch of people up some steps and walked into an open door then I could not disagree with you more. Anyone who damaged property or tussled with police and the people who initially stormed that one barricade (there is footage of precisely when this started) should be prosecuted severely. They should use ClearView AI on all the video and find those people and they should be punished severely. What are you going to do about maybe a few hundred people, some that might have thought it was fine or had doors opened for them by capital police (rumor) that entered the capital and took some selfies and left? I don't like your blanket approach as it sounds a lot like things people were saying last summer but I do agree that those who committed acts of violence and vandalism or witnessed them and did nothing should be punished. It was a large crowd, not a group acting as one mind and with one consciousness. We see these videos and I think our brain assume that but it's not real. We have a perspective on things that the people there in the moment did not.





  7. #31
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    Re: Trump fallout links

    Quote Originally Posted by BustOfPallas View Post
    Ahhh the rule of law. No excuses. I would say that is correct and sounds familiar but looking backwards the last year or so it does not. If a capitol police held the door open for you or you did not see any police being beat or vandalism occurring but followed a bunch of people up some steps and walked into an open door then I could not disagree with you more. Anyone who damaged property or tussled with police and the people who initially stormed that one barricade (there is footage of precisely when this started) should be prosecuted severely. They should use ClearView AI on all the video and find those people and they should be punished severely. What are you going to do about maybe a few hundred people, some that might have thought it was fine or had doors opened for them by capital police (rumor) that entered the capital and took some selfies and left? I don't like your blanket approach as it sounds a lot like things people were saying last summer but I do agree that those who committed acts of violence and vandalism or witnessed them and did nothing should be punished. It was a large crowd, not a group acting as one mind and with one consciousness. We see these videos and I think our brain assume that but it's not real. We have a perspective on things that the people there in the moment did not.
    Do you know what it sounds like? It sounds like how you and several others on this board were talking last summer. The way you've been talking recently, in the aftermath of this, is VERY different from how you spoke last summer. And I've seen quite a bit of that here. Such a focus on what 'others' were saying and how they were talking in the summer, not even what posters on this board were saying. Others outside of the board. But zero focus on what you yourself and others on this board were saying and how your were talking last summer. Which, to be clear, was a stark contrast to how you sound now.
    "Please take with you this final sword, The Excellector. I am praying that your journey will be guided by the light", Leon Shore





  8. #32
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    Re: Trump fallout links

    The reality is that if you were even close enough to see an Officer holding the door open to begin with, amongst that mob of people, you were already too close and in the wrong.
    "Please take with you this final sword, The Excellector. I am praying that your journey will be guided by the light", Leon Shore





  9. #33

    Re: Trump fallout links

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    Do you know what it sounds like? It sounds like how you and several others on this board were talking last summer. The way you've been talking recently, in the aftermath of this, is VERY different from how you spoke last summer. And I've seen quite a bit of that here. Such a focus on what 'others' were saying and how they were talking in the summer, not even what posters on this board were saying. Others outside of the board. But zero focus on what you yourself and others on this board were saying and how your were talking last summer. Which, to be clear, was a stark contrast to how you sound now.
    Nice mischaracterization. I shouldn’t be surprised.
    Let look at the differences. First those who generally disagree with you said that antifa was causing the problems. Some blm too. They were also saying that they were not peaceful protests, well because violence seemed to break out often at them. Yet the state and local govt did NOTHING. Here we have a one time event and by golly it was gotten under control in half a day, and yet we here calls of if this were blacks so mnay would have been killed. When BLM protests were going on for MONTHS. What a load of BS.





  10. #34

    Re: Trump fallout links

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    The reality is that if you were even close enough to see an Officer holding the door open to begin with, amongst that mob of people, you were already too close and in the wrong.
    Well that’s just stupid





  11. #35

    Re: Trump fallout links

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    Do you know what it sounds like? It sounds like how you and several others on this board were talking last summer. The way you've been talking recently, in the aftermath of this, is VERY different from how you spoke last summer. And I've seen quite a bit of that here. Such a focus on what 'others' were saying and how they were talking in the summer, not even what posters on this board were saying. Others outside of the board. But zero focus on what you yourself and others on this board were saying and how your were talking last summer. Which, to be clear, was a stark contrast to how you sound now.
    If you go back and look I think you will see on many, many threads that I stated I believed that the protests this last summer were infiltrated by left wing anarchist losers. True bad seeds that were exploiting the protections and legitimacy of those events to do what they would do in any environment where they could get away with it. Which is to say creating mayhem. Both parties have and are susceptible to the fringe elements within them but those people are not representative of the whole. I remember forming those thoughts and expressing them here.

    There were some guys even saying it was boogaloo in the crowd responsible, probably to deflect from the shame of the spectacle of Kenosha burning etc.. and that sounds a lot like people claiming Antifa here.

    Did I vote for Trump. Yes. I am likely older than you and have watched Joe Biden for 40 years and he's fucking awful. Do you think I'm denying voting for Trump? I'm not.

    Was I disgusted at the handling of the riots last summer and some of the obnoxious tactics and ridiculous demands of BLM. Oh yeah. Big time.

    I don't understand what the problem is here. What exactly did I say that seems so contradictory to you. Punish the guilty i.e. vandals, violent perpetrators if you can identify them. Some grandpa that followed a bunch people up a flight of steps smiling and holding a Trump banner. No. No way. That guy goes home.





  12. #36

    Re: Trump fallout links

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    Fullest extent of the law. I have always felt that those who burned buildings and began looting were a mixture of extremists looking for reasons to cause chaos, and opportunists who cared not one wit about racial injustice. That was not the answer, is not the answer and will not be the answer. I wanted them all arrested and thrown in prison, and I said that here.

    Conversely, Everyone involved in this needs to be arrested and I say again, the fullest extent of the Law. If you were in that building, you need to go. That may not mean you are a bad person. That may just mean that you got caught up in the moment. That said, in this country, to be frank, we've never wanted to hear it, nor do we now, and I don't think we ever should.

    There has been proven fraud in just about every Presidential election we have ever had. This one was no different. The reality, however, is that, much like the rest, it is on such a minute scale that it won't come close to over-turning an election. Trump took that reality that we all knew, and turned the volume up on it ten-fold, to cause a fracture within our country. He then, after being full of military response rhetoric and strong words following the riots in the summer, told these people that he loved them, they are special and FALSELY took credit for calling in the National Guard, when it was Pence who called in the National Guard. He got them rev'd up at a rally with his talks about marching down to the Capitol and even worse, his talk of taking things back "With strength". As we've established, yes, that many people could easily make it to the Capitol in a half hour, from where the rally was.

    That these people actually thought they were right, does not change the reality of what they did and what they are. When a man from another country and culture, beats the crap out of his wife, and argues that it was allowed in his country, we, in so many words, inform him that we don't do that here legally Sir. When some wack-job environmental extremist pulls some crazy stunt, because they think they are doing good, we inform them that, no, good sir or Ma'am, you are a terrorist, because these are terroristic acts.

    These people did what they did and they are what they are.
    ☝️Great post there! 👏👏👏





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