Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 12 of 29
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Frederick, MD
    Posts
    61,272
    Blog Entries
    4

    Ethical Question for Public Policy

    On a recent road trip with me wife, we were discussing some different public policy topics - mostly because she works in Public Health at the NIH and, you know, COVID.

    One topic that we talked about was whether or not a policy maker should, ethically, always lean towards promoting individual liberty regardless of the outcome. The Libertarian in me says yes, absolutely. No one should tell other people what to do or how to live their lives.

    However, there are a shit load of risks that come with that perspective. Libertarianism works for educated people capable of navigating life because they, more often than not, will succeed and live a pretty good life without much input from Uncle Sam. On the flip side, I think there is a valid argument from many on the Left that the idea of unfettered individual liberty doesn't work for the masses because there are a lot of incompetent people in this country that can't do much of anything without having their hands held. So, does it make more sense to create public policy that caters to those parts of the population that generally cannot help themselves.

    The parts of the population I'm talking about are typically poor living in major cities, Appalachia, and so on. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. These people can't hold jobs or can't leave an area if no work exists for them. They largely practice irresponsible reproduction. They have difficulty amassing wealth. They're uneducated because their school systems aren't very good and they don't have support systems in place that prioritizes education.

    So, is it more ethical to let everyone (include the people I just mentioned) basically do what they want and live their lives however they want, irregardless of their destructive natures and knowing full well that they're going to be a drain on a number of public services and goods such as healthcare, education, and law enforcement? Or, is the more ethical choice to implement public policy that, effectively, creates guard rails for everyone in an attempt to create a more orderly and efficient society to try and lessen the regressive outcomes of the parts of the population that simply don't know any better and are otherwise incapable of evolving into a more enlightened and contributing member of society?
    Disclaimer: The content posted is of my own opinion.





  2. #2

    Re: Ethical Question for Public Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    On a recent road trip with me wife, we were discussing some different public policy topics - mostly because she works in Public Health at the NIH and, you know, COVID.

    One topic that we talked about was whether or not a policy maker should, ethically, always lean towards promoting individual liberty regardless of the outcome. The Libertarian in me says yes, absolutely. No one should tell other people what to do or how to live their lives.

    However, there are a shit load of risks that come with that perspective. Libertarianism works for educated people capable of navigating life because they, more often than not, will succeed and live a pretty good life without much input from Uncle Sam. On the flip side, I think there is a valid argument from many on the Left that the idea of unfettered individual liberty doesn't work for the masses because there are a lot of incompetent people in this country that can't do much of anything without having their hands held. So, does it make more sense to create public policy that caters to those parts of the population that generally cannot help themselves.

    The parts of the population I'm talking about are typically poor living in major cities, Appalachia, and so on. This shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. These people can't hold jobs or can't leave an area if no work exists for them. They largely practice irresponsible reproduction. They have difficulty amassing wealth. They're uneducated because their school systems aren't very good and they don't have support systems in place that prioritizes education.

    So, is it more ethical to let everyone (include the people I just mentioned) basically do what they want and live their lives however they want, irregardless of their destructive natures and knowing full well that they're going to be a drain on a number of public services and goods such as healthcare, education, and law enforcement? Or, is the more ethical choice to implement public policy that, effectively, creates guard rails for everyone in an attempt to create a more orderly and efficient society to try and lessen the regressive outcomes of the parts of the population that simply don't know any better and are otherwise incapable of evolving into a more enlightened and contributing member of society?
    So is it ok to control people because they are too stupid to take care of themselves? No.





  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Frederick, MD
    Posts
    61,272
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: Ethical Question for Public Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by blah3 View Post
    So is it ok to control people because they are too stupid to take care of themselves? No.
    The Libertarian in me agrees with you. Everyone has free will and therefore should have the right to basically live their lives the way they want to live.

    However, I can see the argument for implementing public policy because there are so many incompetent and immoral people in this country that you have to basically give them a roadmap with bumper guards to make sure that they don't "kill" everyone else and destroy public goods and services through their ineptitude.

    Which is more ethical?

    A) I know this person is a danger to themselves because of their incompetence and disregard for social norms, but I'm going to let them live however they want to live and hope they don't hurt others in the process (directly, or indirectly).

    B) I know this person is a danger to themselves because of their incompetence and disregard for social norms, therefore I feel the most responsible choice is to enact public policies that may not overtly impact people that are competent enough to be successful, but will help the incompetent enough so that they don't completely suck the life out of society.


    That's a hard choice, IMO.
    Disclaimer: The content posted is of my own opinion.





  4. #4

    Re: Ethical Question for Public Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    The Libertarian in me agrees with you. Everyone has free will and therefore should have the right to basically live their lives the way they want to live.

    However, I can see the argument for implementing public policy because there are so many incompetent and immoral people in this country that you have to basically give them a roadmap with bumper guards to make sure that they don't "kill" everyone else and destroy public goods and services through their ineptitude.

    Which is more ethical?

    A) I know this person is a danger to themselves because of their incompetence and disregard for social norms, but I'm going to let them live however they want to live and hope they don't hurt others in the process (directly, or indirectly).

    B) I know this person is a danger to themselves because of their incompetence and disregard for social norms, therefore I feel the most responsible choice is to enact public policies that may not overtly impact people that are competent enough to be successful, but will help the incompetent enough so that they don't completely suck the life out of society.


    That's a hard choice, IMO.
    Its also a false choice. Whatever public policy is enacted is going to effect the responsible.





  5. #5
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Frederick, MD
    Posts
    61,272
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: Ethical Question for Public Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by blah3 View Post
    Its also a false choice. Whatever public policy is enacted is going to effect the responsible.
    But couldn't you argue that those that are competent and capable of making good decisions and functioning in a normal society would be successful in most any circumstance because they're competent people? So, does it really matter?
    Disclaimer: The content posted is of my own opinion.





  6. #6

    Re: Ethical Question for Public Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    But couldn't you argue that those that are competent and capable of making good decisions and functioning in a normal society would be successful in most any circumstance because they're competent people? So, does it really matter?
    Again, why should they be controlled by public policy if they are competent? You cant have public policy only effect or apply to the incompetent. Its immoral to hurt the competent in a vain effort to save the incompotent





  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Bridgeville,DE
    Posts
    14,592

    Re: Ethical Question for Public Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    But couldn't you argue that those that are competent and capable of making good decisions and functioning in a normal society would be successful in most any circumstance because they're competent people? So, does it really matter?
    Those that can succeed usually do. I don’t think establishing laws, rules , programs to help the ones who can’t / won’t help themselves is def warranted. But I’d limit it. Currently the system in place is a blank ,never ending check for these citizens you speak of. They make and sell drugs and still collect all kinds of gov aide. They keep making babies to continue the cycle and to get more money!

    Put limits on this shit. Mandatory drug test. Any and all women “in the system “ with children must be on some kind of birth control after their 2nd child. Make GED classes mandatory. Also offer trade school classes. Give a limited time frame that they can mooch. Once that time is up ...get a job of some kind and we’ll continue to help you ...or you’re cut off. Fail a drug test ...cut off. Arrested ...cut off.

    Also gotta try to improve , increase public transportation in rural areas. Can’t work if you can’t get there.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





  8. #8

    Re: Ethical Question for Public Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Laxdad24 View Post
    Those that can succeed usually do. I don’t think establishing laws, rules , programs to help the ones who can’t / won’t help themselves is def warranted. But I’d limit it. Currently the system in place is a blank ,never ending check for these citizens you speak of. They make and sell drugs and still collect all kinds of gov aide. They keep making babies to continue the cycle and to get more money!

    Put limits on this shit. Mandatory drug test. Any and all women “in the system “ with children must be on some kind of birth control after their 2nd child. Make GED classes mandatory. Also offer trade school classes. Give a limited time frame that they can mooch. Once that time is up ...get a job of some kind and we’ll continue to help you ...or you’re cut off. Fail a drug test ...cut off. Arrested ...cut off.

    Also gotta try to improve , increase public transportation in rural areas. Can’t work if you can’t get there.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    They tried drug tests for anyone collecting welfare in FLA and found that it ended up costing double and only found ~7% of collectors were dirty. Its not worth the cost.





  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Frederick, MD
    Posts
    61,272
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: Ethical Question for Public Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by Laxdad24 View Post
    Those that can succeed usually do. I don’t think establishing laws, rules , programs to help the ones who can’t / won’t help themselves is def warranted. But I’d limit it. Currently the system in place is a blank ,never ending check for these citizens you speak of. They make and sell drugs and still collect all kinds of gov aide. They keep making babies to continue the cycle and to get more money!

    Put limits on this shit. Mandatory drug test. Any and all women “in the system “ with children must be on some kind of birth control after their 2nd child. Make GED classes mandatory. Also offer trade school classes. Give a limited time frame that they can mooch. Once that time is up ...get a job of some kind and we’ll continue to help you ...or you’re cut off. Fail a drug test ...cut off. Arrested ...cut off.

    Also gotta try to improve , increase public transportation in rural areas. Can’t work if you can’t get there.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    They make and sell drugs because they don't know any better man. That's what they have grown up seeing and believe. At this point, drugs and violence are baked into their culture. Irresponsible reproduction habits are also part of their culture. That's why abortion laws will never go away - it is a low key way to cull population of people that just simply cannot control themselves and don't know any better. Just look at where Planed Parenthood offices are located. It's plain as day to understand why.

    And the government aid is there so these people get just enough to buy simple things and some necessities like food. If they didn't have those things, they'd probably steal and commit violence to a much higher degree.

    How can you put limits on something that has been baked into a culture for multiple generations? Education is devalued, there are no support systems in place, the family is devalued...listen man, it's sad, but the reality is these parts of the population simply are incapable of functioning in society.

    So, which is the lesser of evils here? Piss off competent people a bit to try and quell the incompetent population as best as possible to try and lift them up a little in the hopes that some of them catch on and get with the program? Or, let that incompetent part of the population go off the rails, which would REALLY throw a lot of the country into chaos, overrun our healthcare systems, etc.

    It's not an easy choice.
    Disclaimer: The content posted is of my own opinion.





  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Bridgeville,DE
    Posts
    14,592

    Re: Ethical Question for Public Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    They make and sell drugs because they don't know any better man. That's what they have grown up seeing and believe. At this point, drugs and violence are baked into their culture. Irresponsible reproduction habits are also part of their culture. That's why abortion laws will never go away - it is a low key way to cull population of people that just simply cannot control themselves and don't know any better. Just look at where Planed Parenthood offices are located. It's plain as day to understand why.

    And the government aid is there so these people get just enough to buy simple things and some necessities like food. If they didn't have those things, they'd probably steal and commit violence to a much higher degree.

    How can you put limits on something that has been baked into a culture for multiple generations? Education is devalued, there are no support systems in place, the family is devalued...listen man, it's sad, but the reality is these parts of the population simply are incapable of functioning in society.

    So, which is the lesser of evils here? Piss off competent people a bit to try and quell the incompetent population as best as possible to try and lift them up a little in the hopes that some of them catch on and get with the program? Or, let that incompetent part of the population go off the rails, which would REALLY throw a lot of the country into chaos, overrun our healthcare systems, etc.

    It's not an easy choice.
    It is easy. You/we have to help or at least try. It’s the right thing to do. Do it with the hopes of breaking the cycle. If you can “save” 1/3 of these people , it’s a huge victory.

    As for the rest of us , some need to stop looking down their noses at this problem. Most middle class families are just an extreme event from joining these people.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk





  11. #11

    Re: Ethical Question for Public Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by wickedsolo View Post
    They make and sell drugs because they don't know any better man. That's what they have grown up seeing and believe. At this point, drugs and violence are baked into their culture. Irresponsible reproduction habits are also part of their culture. That's why abortion laws will never go away - it is a low key way to cull population of people that just simply cannot control themselves and don't know any better. Just look at where Planed Parenthood offices are located. It's plain as day to understand why.

    And the government aid is there so these people get just enough to buy simple things and some necessities like food. If they didn't have those things, they'd probably steal and commit violence to a much higher degree.

    How can you put limits on something that has been baked into a culture for multiple generations? Education is devalued, there are no support systems in place, the family is devalued...listen man, it's sad, but the reality is these parts of the population simply are incapable of functioning in society.

    So, which is the lesser of evils here? Piss off competent people a bit to try and quell the incompetent population as best as possible to try and lift them up a little in the hopes that some of them catch on and get with the program? Or, let that incompetent part of the population go off the rails, which would REALLY throw a lot of the country into chaos, overrun our healthcare systems, etc.

    It's not an easy choice.
    Its an easy choice when you take away the pollyanna effectiveness these programs are expected to have. Everyone in this country gets a free education yet you are bemoaning not enough opportunity for some. You can be poor and not commit crime. These people need to fix themselves cause public policy can’t





  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Frederick, MD
    Posts
    61,272
    Blog Entries
    4

    Re: Ethical Question for Public Policy

    Quote Originally Posted by blah3 View Post
    Its an easy choice when you take away the pollyanna effectiveness these programs are expected to have. Everyone in this country gets a free education yet you are bemoaning not enough opportunity for some. You can be poor and not commit crime. These people need to fix themselves cause public policy can’t
    But what I'm suggesting is that these people are incapable of "fixing themselves".
    Disclaimer: The content posted is of my own opinion.





Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Link To Mobile Site
var infolinks_pid = 3297965; var infolinks_wsid = 0; //—->