The Responsibility of Natural Gifts

[jamb17]

You know, when Lamar was in his youth playing ball, everyone was likely wowed by his natural gift of running. The same with high school, and the same with Petrino at Louisville. There are even stories of how Jackson’s mom would call Petrino to make sure he stayed true to his word on Lamar and even then, there was just this awe in his natural gifts.

John Harbaugh made some statements that confirmed what many here have kind of suspected, that Lamar wants to be more of a pocket passer who runs when necessary and wants to emphasize his passing well over his running. Harbaugh intimated that Lamar’s turnaround was partly due to him being willing, mentally, to get back to what he does best.

But with guys like that, it makes me feel like that’s all they’re destined to be best at. Because at every stop, when you think a Coach is going to emphasize their development as a passer over anything else, they just fall in love with their legs, the short term wins that can pile up and their development as a passer takes a back seat to those legs. Whereas they could become much better passers who only run when necessary and rack up those wins for a much longer career. So, there’s this sense that they should stick to what they do best.

Has anyone ever truly seen past that to help them evolve? To help grow the idea of what they do best? Every coach that sees you just falls in love with your legs and tries to convince you to not want more than that being the focal point. That’s your ceiling.

I’m just talking out loud. It’s something that’s been on my mind for a while and it bothers me.
I just think about what guys like that could truly be if earlier in their careers, they weren’t pigeonholed into being running QBs. Some guys just don’t have it. Some just don’t have the work ethic. But there are others where it’s like, they could be so much more.......so much more.

I've been saying the same thing this whole season. There will come a time when the franchise will have to pick the coach or the QB. I do not believe Harbs or Roman can take Lamar to the next level and this franchise will suffer because of it!

[s.r.genovese]

Yeah, the Ravens did such a good job of developing Flacco, surrounding him with number one receivers and consistent guidance at OC....Lamar should expect much better.

Contrary to popular belief the fact that they got a Super Bowl out of Flacco is plus for the coaching staff not a minus.

[The Excellector]

Sorry Ex, I don't agree. If someone has a great singing voice, you don't try to make him/her into a dancer or vice versa. I do think the Ravens tried to make LJ8 into more of a pocket passer, but it (at least up until now) did not work. He became the 2019 NFL MVP in large part due to his running ability. I also feel that he seemed hampered when the Ravens lost 4 of 5 game, then they/he decided to run wild again. His running, along with the emergence of Dobbins and Gus' continued productive work, opened up our offense. Let him be what he is until he can't do it anymore, then he's given his all and we fans have received the best he had to offer... Bc

But Bc, how can we determine that quickly, that it ‘won’t’ work? It sounds like we’re never going to try again. And even for QBs where it eventually works, they all have their issues and obstacles to overcome along the way. It’s not all smooth sailing in the growth process in that regard.

[The Excellector]

I guess, aside from my rambling, it just bothers me that kids with athletic gifts at a young age, are being deprived of being taught the position properly, as coaches emphasize their legs more, sacrificing their long-term development, for those short-term wins. And then when they reach this level, that ‘running QB’ is what they are locked into. So now, instead of potentially having the 15 year career at the top of a division, they’ll have maybe a good 5 years, their body will begin to betray them, their passing growth won’t be sufficient enough and they will fade away.

You can still properly learn the position, and still use those athletic gifts at your own discretion.

[BcRaven]

But Bc, how can we determine that quickly, that it ‘won’t’ work? It sounds like we’re never going to try again. And even for QBs where it eventually works, they all have their issues and obstacles to overcome along the way. It’s not all smooth sailing in the growth process in that regard.

Ex, keep in mind that LJ will only be 24 (Jan. 7th) and has time to mature and grow as a QB. It's difficult trying to make him something he just is not ready to be yet... or perhaps ever. Therefore, let him use his G-d given, natural talent (his legs) until he's ready to make the next step (I think there's a pun there?)... Bc

[GOTA]

I haven't either. What is it?

The make 3-D models of your movement. It's the same process they use for video games. Golfers have been doing it for a while to get exact measurements of their swings.

For example, they can measure your hip angle, shoulder turn and how you place your head as you swing. It's the same with throwing a football. You might open your hips up quicker if you can place you head in a particular spot. It's about getting data to use analytics based on motion.

With Allen the big change was in arm angle for throws. Some guys like Lamar, Mahomes and Rivers will throw whatever feels comfortable. That didn't work for Allen. By mapping out his motion he was taught what angle worked best for him and he tries to use that on every throw. It's apparently the secret behind his accuracy improvements.

[JimZipCode]

Contrary to popular belief the fact that they got a Super Bowl out of Flacco is plus for the coaching staff not a minus.

[edromeo]

I guess, aside from my rambling, it just bothers me that kids with athletic gifts at a young age, are being deprived of being taught the position properly, as coaches emphasize their legs more, sacrificing their long-term development, for those short-term wins. And then when they reach this level, that ‘running QB’ is what they are locked into. So now, instead of potentially having the 15 year career at the top of a division, they’ll have maybe a good 5 years, their body will begin to betray them, their passing growth won’t be sufficient enough and they will fade away.

You can still properly learn the position, and still use those athletic gifts at your own discretion.

I agree that there will be the temptation to use a dual threat QB as a rusher only, especially at the youth levels.
That touches on a whole more complicated conversation that imho is too nuanced for a sports message board. But, even that is changing; take Kyler Murray and Jaylen Hurts at OK for example.


But on the whole; I think you are stuck in a false dichotomy. The choice to develop a dual threat isn’t an either/or proposition. Just because a QB is used in the run game doesn’t mean they won’t or can’t also be developed to their full extent as passer.

It gets slippery because your definition of what constitutes developing the QB as “pocket passer” is undefined. It seems to center on passing attempts and whether or not the QB is used in the run game.
I don’t agree that either is a good measure of whether a QB is a good pocket passer.

The MVP Lamar Jackson was used in the run game and had a low volume of passing attempts. He was number 1 in TD from the pocket, led the league in TD passes, had a good completion percentage and was good on 3rd down.

Regardless of the “type” QB; becoming a fully developed passer is a multi year process that involves developing of the QB and having the right scheme and the right weapons. And using that QB in the run game doesn’t have to preclude their development as passer. If Brady could have been used in the run game back when he was a young game managing QB Bellicheck absolutely would have.

[BustOfPallas]

Contrary to popular belief the fact that they got a Super Bowl out of Flacco is plus for the coaching staff not a minus.

Ha ha ha ! Yeah it was "coaching" with Joe and not that he was surrounded with talent and due to his "natural gifts". Ha ha ha ha!

Torrey Smith, Jacoby Jones, Anquan Bolden, Ed Dixon, Ray Rice, Dennis Pitta, Vonta Leach...

Joe had a lot of talent around him in 2012..On both sides of the ball...

And it sure as hell wasn't "coaching" that he had the cannon to throw a ball over coverage in -20 degree weather in Q4 in Denver to keep our season alive. That coverage was broken by his arm...Joe's "natural gifts". Not coachable. He broke the defense with his arm.

[The Excellector]

Ex, keep in mind that LJ will only be 24 (Jan. 7th) and has time to mature and grow as a QB. It's difficult trying to make him something he just is not ready to be yet... or perhaps ever. Therefore, let him use his G-d given, natural talent (his legs) until he's ready to make the next step (I think there's a pun there?)... Bc

So, if that is our answer for whenever he falls into a rut, when will he ever be ready? There will be ruts. Even Peyton Manning had ruts.

By the way, I say this acknowledging that I am enjoying this discussion.

[The Excellector]

I agree that there will be the temptation to use a dual threat QB as a rusher only, especially at the youth levels.
That touches on a whole more complicated conversation that imho is too nuanced for a sports message board. But, even that is changing; take Kyler Murray and Jaylen Hurts at OK for example.


But on the whole; I think you are stuck in a false dichotomy. The choice to develop a dual threat isn’t an either/or proposition. Just because a QB is used in the run game doesn’t mean they won’t or can’t also be developed to their full extent as passer.

It gets slippery because your definition of what constitutes developing the QB as “pocket passer” is undefined. It seems to center on passing attempts and whether or not the QB is used in the run game.
I don’t agree that either is a good measure of whether a QB is a good pocket passer.

The MVP Lamar Jackson was used in the run game and had a low volume of passing attempts. He was number 1 in TD from the pocket, led the league in TD passes, had a good completion percentage and was good on 3rd down.

Regardless of the “type” QB; becoming a fully developed passer is a multi year process that involves developing of the QB and having the right scheme and the right weapons. And using that QB in the run game doesn’t have to preclude their development as passer. If Brady could have been used in the run game back when he was a young game managing QB Bellicheck absolutely would have.

And yet, without those, he developed Brady the way that he did. Whereas, does he do that if he can just lean on Brady's legs? Brady is one of the best pocket passers we've ever seen. His movement within the pocket, the way he manipulates the pocket with such.

A.) Does Brady become who he is today is so much emphasis is taken away from his passing development and placed to his running ability? We're not dealing with infinite time here. There is only so much time to train, study, coach and play. That time has to be divided up.
B.) Would Brady have lasted 20 years at a high level?

[Jazz1988]

Yeah, the Ravens did such a good job of developing Flacco, surrounding him with number one receivers and consistent guidance at OC....Lamar should expect much better.

Considering the school that Joe Flacco came from and the success The Ravens had with him then I would say they definitely didn't do a bad job with developing him. Could things have been better ? Yes it could but it is what it is. Flacco was probably a more polished passer than Lamar Jackson was though .