The Responsibility of Natural Gifts

[edromeo]

... And I feel like that's often the case for QBs like him, their entire life. Which plays a role in the idea that this is 'Who they truly are'. For him to make the progress from year one to two, I believe his ceiling as a passer is extremely high.............I guess I'm just sitting here thinking. Lamar made so much progress from year one to two. And to be fair to Edromeo, he did make good progress under Petrino. However, if the answer to the struggles were, 'Let's let him work through this', and he could truly become that pocket passer who only runs when necessary, he could have that 15-20 year career. He would be one of the most indefensible QBs in history, and for nearly two decades. As it stands now, unless he grows tremendously as a passer or they get him Allen Robinson type guys on the outside, I don't know how many more years they'll honestly be able to get out of this offense.

I doubt there are many people on this forum that think more of Lamar's potential then me. So I absolutely agree with you that Lamar has a high ceiling as passer and last year was NFL evidence of that reality that people need to remember.

You can look at any metric you want and Lamar was near the top in the NFL. MVP, Led the league in passing TD, top 5 QB from the pocket, 5th highest passing EPA/QBR in the league, and depending on which source Lamar was anywhere from top 15 to 5th in deep passing. I only mention Lamar's success last year to contrast him passing this year.

Last year is an example to me that proper development in the passing game is independent of volume.
His footwork was better, his decision making was better.

The areas that I believe are causing Lamar's struggles (outside of personnel OL/receivers) are a decline in his decision making and fundamentals. And its not just me...Josh Harris, Lamar's offseason coach, said a couple weeks ago that Lamar's fundamentals looked like his rookie season. Troy Aikman mentioned a couple times that Lamar's footwork was off.

I am disappointed that the Raven's coaching staff can't maintain Lamar's fundamentals on their own and it seems they are reliant on the extensive offseason work Lamar had with Coach Harris and Tom House to build the foundation for Lamar's fundamental to last through the season. But Covid prevented Lamar from replicating the quantity and quality of offseason work he able to build this offseason.

To me the issue isn't necessarily the volume of passes its the type of passing game as whole.
For me the main failures are in 3 areas: (1) number of deep attempts -this offense needs to throw deep more
(2) passes that are thrown on rhythm and timing (3-5-7 step etc) which are required mainly on (3) passes outside the numbers.

The troubling aspect is the 2 fold for me, (1) the Ravens staff weren't able to maintain Lamar fundamentals (2) therefore didn't try to develop those areas of the passing game that require precise footwork, mechanics.
Deep passing and outside the numbers passing were areas the HC and OC both identified for improvement to evolve into an "indefensible" offense but failed to succeed or really even attempt consistently.

For me the blame is more with the QB Coach and to lesser extent the "Passing Game Coordinator" then with Harbs and Roman.

TLDR: I think they are coaching around the failure of the QB coach and passing game coordinator.

[BcRaven]

You know, when Lamar was in his youth playing ball, everyone was likely wowed by his natural gift of running. The same with high school, and the same with Petrino at Louisville. There are even stories of how Jackson’s mom would call Petrino to make sure he stayed true to his word on Lamar and even then, there was just this awe in his natural gifts.

John Harbaugh made some statements that confirmed what many here have kind of suspected, that Lamar wants to be more of a pocket passer who runs when necessary and wants to emphasize his passing well over his running. Harbaugh intimated that Lamar’s turnaround was partly due to him being willing, mentally, to get back to what he does best.

But with guys like that, it makes me feel like that’s all they’re destined to be best at. Because at every stop, when you think a Coach is going to emphasize their development as a passer over anything else, they just fall in love with their legs, the short term wins that can pile up and their development as a passer takes a back seat to those legs. Whereas they could become much better passers who only run when necessary and rack up those wins for a much longer career. So, there’s this sense that they should stick to what they do best.

Has anyone ever truly seen past that to help them evolve? To help grow the idea of what they do best? Every coach that sees you just falls in love with your legs and tries to convince you to not want more than that being the focal point. That’s your ceiling.

I’m just talking out loud. It’s something that’s been on my mind for a while and it bothers me.
I just think about what guys like that could truly be if earlier in their careers, they weren’t pigeonholed into being running QBs. Some guys just don’t have it. Some just don’t have the work ethic. But there are others where it’s like, they could be so much more.......so much more.

Ex, IMO "The Responsibility of Natural Gifts" is for the player to become a #1 draft choice, then make the playoffs in his first 2 (hopefully 3) years as an NFL professional, become league MVP, then @ the tender young age of 24 (with 3 years pro experience) hopefully go on to a championship for our Ravens... Bc

[BPF2]

Ex, IMO "The Responsibility of Natural Gifts" is for the player to become a #1 draft choice, then make the playoffs in his first 2 (hopefully 3) years as an NFL professional, become league MVP, then @ the tender young age of 24 (with 3 years pro experience) hopefully go on to a championship for our Ravens... Bc

I'm with you. You don't draft a player with an unprecedented set of skills and tell him not to use those skills, focus on these weaker aspects. It's setting him up to fail and setting the team up to fail. How many times have we tried to force a player into a different role to see him finally succeed in final year then leave? I don't want us to make Lamar "more like _____" so he can play 20 years. Using the skills he has will make it easier to improve other areas and round out his game. Forcing him to throw more from the pocket makes it harder on him because defense don't have to worry about all the threats he can pose. And behind this line, he probably be injured.

As for mechanics, I agree they've deteriorated from last year. I don't think you can discount the fact that there was no work put in with the coaching staff and he was limited to his own workouts with teammates. Hopefully we get a normal off-season this year.

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[HbgPARavenfan]

You know, when Lamar was in his youth playing ball, everyone was likely wowed by his natural gift of running. The same with high school, and the same with Petrino at Louisville. There are even stories of how Jackson’s mom would call Petrino to make sure he stayed true to his word on Lamar and even then, there was just this awe in his natural gifts.

John Harbaugh made some statements that confirmed what many here have kind of suspected, that Lamar wants to be more of a pocket passer who runs when necessary and wants to emphasize his passing well over his running. Harbaugh intimated that Lamar’s turnaround was partly due to him being willing, mentally, to get back to what he does best.

But with guys like that, it makes me feel like that’s all they’re destined to be best at. Because at every stop, when you think a Coach is going to emphasize their development as a passer over anything else, they just fall in love with their legs, the short term wins that can pile up and their development as a passer takes a back seat to those legs. Whereas they could become much better passers who only run when necessary and rack up those wins for a much longer career. So, there’s this sense that they should stick to what they do best.

Has anyone ever truly seen past that to help them evolve? To help grow the idea of what they do best? Every coach that sees you just falls in love with your legs and tries to convince you to not want more than that being the focal point. That’s your ceiling.

I’m just talking out loud. It’s something that’s been on my mind for a while and it bothers me.
I just think about what guys like that could truly be if earlier in their careers, they weren’t pigeonholed into being running QBs. Some guys just don’t have it. Some just don’t have the work ethic. But there are others where it’s like, they could be so much more.......so much more.

I think about this a lot.

I think you are 100 % right.

Remember any given sunday... the qb gives the speech to the head coach about being used to win howl games but no one believes on his long term development. Coaches never cared

BUT think there is a shift coming.

For years the best athlete was always...always put at rb.

Go watch peewee and high school football.... now the best athlete is playing qb.

Spread is more common.

It will take a few years or maybe a decade but it will filter up through college and into the pros

[The Excellector]

I'm with you. You don't draft a player with an unprecedented set of skills and tell him not to use those skills, focus on these weaker aspects. It's setting him up to fail and setting the team up to fail. How many times have we tried to force a player into a different role to see him finally succeed in final year then leave? I don't want us to make Lamar "more like _____" so he can play 20 years. Using the skills he has will make it easier to improve other areas and round out his game. Forcing him to throw more from the pocket makes it harder on him because defense don't have to worry about all the threats he can pose. And behind this line, he probably be injured.

As for mechanics, I agree they've deteriorated from last year. I don't think you can discount the fact that there was no work put in with the coaching staff and he was limited to his own workouts with teammates. Hopefully we get a normal off-season this year.

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I think he’s being pigeonholed to a running QB, because no one is ever going to even bother trying to make him much more than that, due to his legs. Whereas, without those legs, they’d place far more emphasis on helping him become the best passer possible. Not just a QB with ‘some’ improvement. And I think it starts in youth.

If a kid has anywhere near that kind of running ability, he almost doomed to be a running QB, because his passing ability development won’t be treated with the same level of importance.

You can’t tell me these young kids can’t develop into pocket passers earlier in their lives. It’s doing them a disservice to skate them of their passing development, just because they can run really well. Here we even have a QB who wants to be that pocket passer who only scrambles and runs when necessary, has always wanted to be that, but was never truly given the opportunity to be that. From a young age? It can’t be because he can’t. It’s because every coach thinks of the short term success.

Look at how fast Lamar learns. Look at how fast he can make progress. But this guy goes through high school having never had a playbook. Not because he couldn’t learn one, but because with him, coaches never needed one since he could run. Then he goes to Petrino and learns a bit, but still goes out there and runs about 250 times during his heisman season. Then he comes here and there’s all of this talk about his growth as a passer, when Laxdad is right, this is how Harbaugh truly wanted it. This is who Harbaugh believes he truly is and that high ceiling some of us feels he has, he will never fully reach.

So, instead of getting 15-20 years of dominance, we may get 3-4, if that, because we all know that Roman’s offenses have a short shelf-life as well. And everyone just accepts that this is all he can be, because his legs are just that good.

[edromeo]

....And everyone just accepts that this is all he can be, because his legs are just that good.

You must have me on ignore or something. ;) Everyone doesn't accept this at all.

[The Excellector]

You must have me on ignore or something. ;) Everyone doesn't accept this at all.

Okay, a very very very large contingent of people. Lol

[BcRaven]

I think he’s being pigeonholed to a running QB, because no one is ever going to even bother trying to make him much more than that, due to his legs. Whereas, without those legs, they’d place far more emphasis on helping him become the best passer possible. Not just a QB with ‘some’ improvement. And I think it starts in youth.

If a kid has anywhere near that kind of running ability, he almost doomed to be a running QB, because his passing ability development won’t be treated with the same level of importance.

Sorry Ex, I don't agree. If someone has a great singing voice, you don't try to make him/her into a dancer or vice versa. I do think the Ravens tried to make LJ8 into more of a pocket passer, but it (at least up until now) did not work. He became the 2019 NFL MVP in large part due to his running ability. I also feel that he seemed hampered when the Ravens lost 4 of 5 game, then they/he decided to run wild again. His running, along with the emergence of Dobbins and Gus' continued productive work, opened up our offense. Let him be what he is until he can't do it anymore, then he's given his all and we fans have received the best he had to offer... Bc

[edromeo]

I'm with you. You don't draft a player with an unprecedented set of skills and tell him not to use those skills, focus on these weaker aspects. It's setting him up to fail and setting the team up to fail.

I agree 100%.

Lamar has a special skillset and its that he's a true dual threat. He was as good a passer as Josh Rosen (who at the time was considered the best pure passer in their draft class). He proved last year that he was one of the better passer in the NFL. Led the league in TD passes, was the top QB in TDs from the pocket, and to date has something like 45 TDs in the RZ to 0 interceptions. Even if you want to say that passing is the weaker aspect of Lamar's game he was still a top 5 passer by QBR/EPA.

However; the lack of developing the passing game, especially outside the pocket and deep is setting Lamar and the team up to fail because it is precisely those areas that the team will need when faces the better defenses.

As for mechanics, I agree they've deteriorated from last year. I don't think you can discount the fact that there was no work put in with the coaching staff and he was limited to his own workouts with teammates. Hopefully we get a normal off-season this year...

No doubt this covid year was unique and was a limiting factor. But it was the same limiting factor for every team in the NFL. In fact the Ravens had it better then many teams because they had staff continuity and a 3rd year QB as opposed to a rookie. I do not absolve Coach Urban from responsibility for coaching up Lamar's fundamentals. When rookie QBs and QBs with new schemes are playing well. Look at the job Pep Hamilton did with Justin Herbert and there are plenty of other examples. Coach Urban presided over the slip in fundamentals of the NFL MVP. Imho, Coach Urban doesn't deserve a pass.

[Julius486]

I also want to advance the idea that both Lamar and the Ravens coaching staff will learn a lot from this year that will lead to them handling things much better in this offseason, regardless of it is affected by COVID or not. Obviously the coaching staff had solid goals for what they wanted to do with Lamar and this offense, and so did Lamar, but the execution left a lot to be desired. I fully expect all parties involved to execute the vision better, not just in the season but in the offseason.

[YorkRavensFan]

Whereas, without those legs, they’d place far more emphasis on helping him become the best passer possible.

Without those legs he likely would have been a day 3 pick at best.

[BustOfPallas]

I think he’s being pigeonholed to a running QB, because no one is ever going to even bother trying to make him much more than that, due to his legs. Whereas, without those legs, they’d place far more emphasis on helping him become the best passer possible. Not just a QB with ‘some’ improvement. And I think it starts in youth...

Yeah, the Ravens did such a good job of developing Flacco, surrounding him with number one receivers and consistent guidance at OC....Lamar should expect much better.