The Responsibility of Natural Gifts

[John Reglarperson]

Josh Allen hired Jordan Palmer to work with him all offseason since Covid screwed up what the team could do. Palmer usually works with college QBs to get them ready for the draft. He’s Carson Palmers brother and played for the WFT and Bengals. He’s kind of a Ricky Proehl for quarterbacks. Allen’s tremendous improvement this year showed that this coaching helped.

Maybe Lamar could do something similar? We all heard about how he spent a lot of time working with Marquise and Antonio Brown. Hire Palmer or someone else to be part of the process. The first thing Palmer did was digitally map Allen’s throws and show him how a change in mechanics could lead to significant improvement. Allen loves golf so he understood that right away and adopted those changes.

That’s the kind of coaching you can’t get on your own. Allen never would have thought of digital mapping. He said he never even heard of it. Lamar seems to really want to improve. Give him the tools and he will get better.

Tom House is also famous for working on throwing mechanics.

House worked with many including Tom Brady.

The NFL regular season is 4 months long. Plenty of time for that.

[BPF2]

Essentially, Lamar's natural gift for running is so extraordinary, that it leads coaches to sacrifice him reaching his ceiling as a passer and evolving as a passer who, for example, can make every throw from the pocket effectively and consistently, but only runs when necessary..................in order to get the most out of his legs.

So, whenever they try to dip their toe in the water of letting him work through the growing pains, it always ends with Lamar wanting to dip more than his toe and coaches trying to convince him to get back to 'Who he really is' and 'What he does best'. However, since they don't truly prioritize him growing out of that and evolving into the sort of QB I mentioned, he's doomed with a reality where this will always be 'What he does best'. Where this will always be 'Who he really is'.

I mistakenly looked at completions, rather than attempts, which Edromeo rightly corrected. My point was that Petrino did not look to evolve him into that kind of guy (The type of guy Lamar has been on record for YEARS as saying he wants to be), so much as get him up to speed enough to do a little something with his arm, while still heavily, heavily showcasing his legs. In 2016, he was in the top 15 in the entire country in rushing attempts. The following season, he was still in the top 26.

Then he comes here, and he's last in the league in passing attempts in 2019, and is around there again this year. Lamar struggles as a passer and everyone wants him to go back to 'Who he really is'.

Basically, being born with those natural gifts, inadvertently damaged his ceiling as a passer, because even though it's extremely high, No coach is every going to prioritize getting him all the way there, because his legs can win so many games in the short-term.

So, years down the line, we'll look at a guy who did improve as a passer, but nowhere near as much as he could have and by year five, you'll be wondering what you have.

Whereas, had pushing him to reach his absolute ceiling as a passer been the true primary focus, he could have evolved into a QB who he wants to be, and in fifteen years, you're still confident in what you have, but for different reasons.

Regarding his ranking among pass attempts, I don't think that's a fair barometer for this offense. We were very balanced last year between run and pass. Ingram and Gus were very effective runners. Lamar was extremely effective as a runner, either designed runs or scrambles. His effectiveness helped open runs for Ingram and Gus. Because you can't just key on them, you have to worry about Lamar. This dangerous rushing attack opened things up for the passing game. He may have been at the bottom of pass attempts, but he led in TD throws.

This year the rushing attack was a little less effective because of changes to the O- line, Ingram a year older, and Lamar was not running as much or as effectively, probably because of these reasons and a leg injury. This also made the passing game less effective. Over the past several games, a healthier Lamar, insertion of JK, and improved line play has gotten the entire offense back on track.

Lamar can continue to improve as a passer. But we also need to win games. He is most effective in all facts when that threat to run is there. I don't think we should expect him to become a pure pocket passer, nor should we want him to. He has special talents that need to be used to enhance his other abilities. Easier to develop the passing accuracy when teams are afraid you're going to run on them.

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[John Reglarperson]

The fact that Petrino "Developed Lamar as a passer" is not being argued. Lamar rushing that much was only needed, because he could do it. If they had a QB who couldn't run like that, would they? No. Petrino would have placed more emphasis on him as a passer, because he wouldn't have had a choice. That is how every QB's passing development should be approached. Lamar doesn't get that luxury, because games can be won with his legs and coaches fall in love with that.

The Ravens wanted a running QB. It's not like all teams want running QBs. Most NFL teams don't, but Greg Roman was a Ravens coach with a strong history with running QBs before Lamar was a Raven.

This is not the first time you or someone else had a thread just like this. Not a bad thing, I do the same.

Lamar Jackson is off to a better start to his NFL career than Josh Rosen is, and they were both QBs drafted the same year. Jackson was drafted later.

I don't think that teams really have some sort of moral responsibility to train their QB to be a generic pocket passer, teams bring in players to do what they want them to do.

The standard running QB who is drafted fairly high has pretty much immediate success if their running is maximized. The standard high drafted pocket QB who doesn't run is a failure. Success rate for non running high drafted QBs is low. 2018 - running - Lamar, Josh Allen. 2/2 success. non running - Baker, Darnold, Rosen. 1/3 success.

[JimZipCode]

In 2016 Lamar did not have more runs then passes. Could be an honest mistake on your part. But...

Wow.

Ed, you have the patience of a saint. I went back and read that post you were reponsing to, and – yeesh. Ex is insane. Literally every single statement he made in that post was factually untrue. He got every fact just completely wrong. Amazing.

[s.r.genovese]

There’s also no guarantee the the ceiling of the offense with Lamar as a guy who just passer and doesn’t do many designed runs is higher than the ceiling of the offense with the current version of Lamar who runs a lot and relies on the run to open up passing lanes. In fact, we have pretty good evidence from this year that the “Lamar only passing” offense is not very good right now.

Ex is the same guy who thought Flacco was some hidden Joe Montana who was held back by John Harbaugh so I’m not sure I trust his judgment of players’ ceilings anyway.

[John Reglarperson]

There’s also no guarantee the the ceiling of the offense with Lamar as a guy who just passer and doesn’t do many designed runs is higher than the ceiling of the offense with the current version of Lamar who runs a lot and relies on the run to open up passing lanes. In fact, we have pretty good evidence from this year that the “Lamar only passing” offense is not very good right now.

Ex is the same guy who thought Flacco was some hidden Joe Montana who was held back by John Harbaugh so I’m not sure I trust his judgment of players’ ceilings anyway.

Running QBs are better. "Lamar who runs a lot" is better.

Ex believes that all QBs should be turned into generic pocket passers who run infrequently, that that is best, and it isn't.

[edromeo]

It is not tragic that coaches are fixated in using Lamar's running ability to win games. You can't expect coaches to sacrifice wins for the development of one player...

Are you referring to Louisville or the Ravens? Louisville maximized win potential by using Lamar in the running game, while also developing him as a passer.

For the Ravens; developing Lamar further as passer doesn't sacrifice wins its actually increasing wins. The Ravens need to become more effective throwing (specifically outside the numbers and deep) those are the areas that good defensive coordinator will force the Ravens offense. The only way that aspect of the passing game improves is to continue to develop Lamar's fundamentals in the rhythm drop back passing game (3-5-7 step drop).
Greg Cosell said that Lamar was a better passer at Louisville then he was a rookie. Joshua Harris, Lamar's QB coach, said that during the Ravens recent rough patch of game that Lamar's passing fundamentals looked like they did his rookie season.

Coach Urban and Roman need to develop Lamar as a passer throwing outside the numbers and deep in order to increase win potential when defenses limit the efficiency of the run game.

His passing game has hit a plateau right now which is a good thing because he knows where to improve at least. That being said Harbaugh and Roman has talked a bunch of game about building the "undefendable" offense and so far that's only true of the run game and most of it was all talk coming from them (still waiting).

Not sure what you mean here?

Just have to live with the possibility that Lamar isn't going to play 20 seasons as an elite QB.

Well, that's no more or less true for Lamar then any other QB.

[The Excellector]

There’s also no guarantee the the ceiling of the offense with Lamar as a guy who just passer and doesn’t do many designed runs is higher than the ceiling of the offense with the current version of Lamar who runs a lot and relies on the run to open up passing lanes. In fact, we have pretty good evidence from this year that the “Lamar only passing” offense is not very good right now.

Ex is the same guy who thought Flacco was some hidden Joe Montana who was held back by John Harbaugh so I’m not sure I trust his judgment of players’ ceilings anyway.

To the Flacco point, I will note that several players have talked about the reality that Joe would have been much better if his development as a passer had been more prioritized. Mark Clayton flat out said that Joe was largely asked to not screw it up for the defense. Those are years you don't get back.

I can't argue that what was being done earlier in the season was working. It was not. However, this kind of touches on what I was getting at. In order to get to that full potential, those are the growing pains you have to be able to work through. I think that with QBs who lack Jackson's other gifts, they are more willing to do so. They made hand off to the RB a bit more and streamline things temporarily, but overall are willing to live with the lumps. In the case of QBs like Jackson, that becomes forsaken, because his legs are just that good. How is he going to reach his full potential as a passer if, every time his passing hits a rut, the answer is for him to run more? And I feel like that's often the case for QBs like him, their entire life. Which plays a role in the idea that this is 'Who they truly are'. For him to make the progress from year one to two, I believe his ceiling as a passer is extremely high.

I guess I'm just sitting here thinking. Lamar made so much progress from year one to two. And to be fair to Edromeo, he did make good progress under Petrino. However, if the answer to the struggles were, 'Let's let him work through this', and he could truly become that pocket passer who only runs when necessary, he could have that 15-20 year career. He would be one of the most indefensible QBs in history, and for nearly two decades. As it stands now, unless he grows tremendously as a passer or they get him Allen Robinson type guys on the outside, I don't know how many more years they'll honestly be able to get out of this offense.

[The Excellector]

I also don't see how he's supposed to train in the off-season and make all of this progress in that regard, and expect that same growth as a passer within the seasons, when that effort and emphasis is not reinforced within the offense itself. It's like telling him that it's the most important thing, but then when the games start, telling him it's not nearly as important as we made it seem. We need your legs and the threat of them more. Part of Allen's development has been that Buffalo has reinforced that work and effort and emphasis he's put into his mechanics and overall passing abilities, into the offense itself. They're letting him throw far more and went out and got him Stefon Diggs. That trade was made March 20th. Had the team even been able to see Allen's growth for themselves?

[BPF2]

To the Flacco point, I will note that several players have talked about the reality that Joe would have been much better if his development as a passer had been more prioritized. Mark Clayton flat out said that Joe was largely asked to not screw it up for the defense. Those are years you don't get back.

I can't argue that what was being done earlier in the season was working. It was not. However, this kind of touches on what I was getting at. In order to get to that full potential, those are the growing pains you have to be able to work through. I think that with QBs who lack Jackson's other gifts, they are more willing to do so. They made hand off to the RB a bit more and streamline things temporarily, but overall are willing to live with the lumps. In the case of QBs like Jackson, that becomes forsaken, because his legs are just that good. How is he going to reach his full potential as a passer if, every time his passing hits a rut, the answer is for him to run more? And I feel like that's often the case for QBs like him, their entire life. Which plays a role in the idea that this is 'Who they truly are'. For him to make the progress from year one to two, I believe his ceiling as a passer is extremely high.

I guess I'm just sitting here thinking. Lamar made so much progress from year one to two. And to be fair to Edromeo, he did make good progress under Petrino. However, if the answer to the struggles were, 'Let's let him work through this', and he could truly become that pocket passer who only runs when necessary, he could have that 15-20 year career. He would be one of the most indefensible QBs in history, and for nearly two decades. As it stands now, unless he grows tremendously as a passer or they get him Allen Robinson type guys on the outside, I don't know how many more years they'll honestly be able to get out of this offense.

I think you're taking an either/or viewpoint on something that is multifaceted. I would love to see Lamar take a leap to a great pocket passer and have a 15-20 year career. I do not want to see the ravens miss the playoffs while waiting for that to happen. I don't want to see us pay Ronnie, Marlon, Judon/Ngakwe, etc and not get the most out of a cheap Lamar. And I don't think we need to. You put a player in the best position to use his talents to win games. That doesn't preclude him from developing the other areas of his game. But teams fear him in the open field because of his legs. Take advantage of that to free up the running and passing lanes. Roll him outside to freeze defenders and allow him to decide best opportunity. That will help him develop a a passer.

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[The Excellector]

I think you're taking an either/or viewpoint on something that is multifaceted. I would love to see Lamar take a leap to a great pocket passer and have a 15-20 year career. I do not want to see the ravens miss the playoffs while waiting for that to happen. I don't want to see us pay Ronnie, Marlon, Judon/Ngakwe, etc and not get the most out of a cheap Lamar. And I don't think we need to. You put a player in the best position to use his talents to win games. That doesn't preclude him from developing the other areas of his game. But teams fear him in the open field because of his legs. Take advantage of that to free up the running and passing lanes. Roll him outside to freeze defenders and allow him to decide best opportunity. That will help him develop a a passer.

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I’m sorry, I don’t see any example in the history of the league where a QB with his high ceiling, actually reached it, in an offense that is last in the league in passing attempts every year. His time as a starter in 2018, much more understandable, but last in the league. Last year, dominant during the regular season, but without a clue in the playoffs when they fell behind (The offense as a whole), last in the league in passing attempts again. And again this year.

QBs don’t magically go train and learn like crazy and suddenly reach their ceiling in an offense that doesn’t reinforce that. You will get ‘some’ improvement, but he won’t reach his ceiling and in five years, you’ll be hesitant to hand him a big contract and likely looking for the next QB.

[Laxdad24]

I’m sorry, I don’t see any example in the history of the league where a QB with his high ceiling, actually reached it, in an offense that is last in the league in passing attempts every year. His time as a starter in 2018, much more understandable, but last in the league. Last year, dominant during the regular season, but without a clue in the playoffs when they fell behind (The offense as a whole), last in the league in passing attempts again. And again this year.

QBs don’t magically go train and learn like crazy and suddenly reach their ceiling in an offense that doesn’t reinforce that. You will get ‘some’ improvement, but he won’t reach his ceiling and in five years, you’ll be hesitant to hand him a big contract and likely looking for the next QB.

Don’t worry Sword. The FO will pay LJ8 whatever he wants ...as long as Harbs is still here. This IS Harbs dream scenario. Best run offense with top ST and top 10 defense. Control the clock. Make “safe “ plays and stop the other team on the other side. Low risk , high reward. I think the player Lamar was last year was an anomaly. This is Lamar going forward.


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