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  1. #409

    Re: Ravens trading for Ngakoue

    Quote Originally Posted by boller4president View Post
    Can't wait to see Ngakoue in a Ravens uniform. I am also interested in how Judon responds with an elite pass rusher next to him.

    I am also interested to see with how far Decosta is willing to go. Is he just going to restructure someone? Is he planning on extending Stanley? Trading Ingram. There is a corresponding move to this that has to happen because of our cap situation.
    Nobody wants to trade for Ingram. He's a declining RB that is 30+ and has racked up injuries from late 2019-now. Best hype man in the business, outstanding teammate, but his trade value is non-existent.

    I think teams are just finally realizing that if you don't have a good OL it doesn't matter who your RB is. Look at Barkley & Bell become absolute non-factors when the OL couldn't create lanes. RB is a position that is being rightfully de-valued imo. It's all about the OL, there are literally UDFA's every year that could rush for 1000 yds if you put them behind a premium run blocking OL.

    Justice Hill is the only trade candidate the Ravens have in their backfield and he's worth what.... like a 5th or 6th at best? The league is overflowing with RB talent, what it's not overflowing with is good OL's that can actually turn them loose.





  2. #410

    Re: Ravens trading for Ngakoue

    Quote Originally Posted by sflegend89 View Post
    Nobody wants to trade for Ingram. He's a declining RB that is 30+ and has racked up injuries from late 2019-now. Best hype man in the business, outstanding teammate, but his trade value is non-existent.

    I think teams are just finally realizing that if you don't have a good OL it doesn't matter who your RB is. Look at Barkley & Bell become absolute non-factors when the OL couldn't create lanes. RB is a position that is being rightfully de-valued imo. It's all about the OL, there are literally UDFA's every year that could rush for 1000 yds if you put them behind a premium run blocking OL.

    Justice Hill is the only trade candidate the Ravens have in their backfield and he's worth what.... like a 5th or 6th at best? The league is overflowing with RB talent, what it's not overflowing with is good OL's that can actually turn them loose.
    What has Justice Hill shown to have any value at all?

    Gus has proven across multiple seasons he is not only a 5ypc back in a Baltimore but has outperformed everyone he has shared a backfield on an efficiency basis. He is the proverbial underutilized player buried on a depth chart. He is EXACTLY what a team trading for a RB wants(2 cheap years, enough experience to step in day 1 but enough tread to earn his keep next year as well).


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  3. #411

    Re: Ravens trading for Ngakoue

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    What has Justice Hill shown to have any value at all?

    Gus has proven across multiple seasons he is not only a 5ypc back in a Baltimore but has outperformed everyone he has shared a backfield on an efficiency basis. He is the proverbial underutilized player buried on a depth chart. He is EXACTLY what a team trading for a RB wants(2 cheap years, enough experience to step in day 1 but enough tread to earn his keep next year as well).


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Well of course Gus would be a better trade target than Hill, I was speaking only on RB's we would actually WANT to trade. Gus is an absolute tank, I wouldn't be a seller on him even if he is an impending RFA.. that's a guy I want to extend and likely cut Ingram after the season.

    Justice Hill still has the 4.3 speed, I'm sure he had GM's that were high on him in 2019 and would still like to get their hands on him for a late pick. I wouldn't be opposed to it if there's a buyer out there





  4. Re: Ravens trading for Ngakoue

    Quote Originally Posted by sflegend89 View Post
    Nobody wants to trade for Ingram. He's a declining RB that is 30+ and has racked up injuries from late 2019-now. Best hype man in the business, outstanding teammate, but his trade value is non-existent.

    I think teams are just finally realizing that if you don't have a good OL it doesn't matter who your RB is. Look at Barkley & Bell become absolute non-factors when the OL couldn't create lanes. RB is a position that is being rightfully de-valued imo. It's all about the OL, there are literally UDFA's every year that could rush for 1000 yds if you put them behind a premium run blocking OL.

    Justice Hill is the only trade candidate the Ravens have in their backfield and he's worth what.... like a 5th or 6th at best? The league is overflowing with RB talent, what it's not overflowing with is good OL's that can actually turn them loose.
    "if you don't have a good OL it doesn't matter who your RB is. "

    I don't think it's exactly that. Good run blocking at other positions, TE, FB, WR, RB are also important. Additionally, you can have a line that is good and solid for pass protection but lacks whatever it is that you're looking for for run blocking. You could have a OG with a 80 PFF in pass blocking and a 60 PFF in run blocking, all across the line you could have that, a 70 PFF, but it's not a good run blocking line.

    Somewhat related to this, it seems pretty clear to me that there are a lot of players who could be very good run blocking oliners who don't fit today's model of oliner. It seems to me that for the most part, they're bringing in types that have the size and athleticism to pass protect well. 6'4 310 6'6 320. The Ravens do have a heavy right side. Generally, though, the general size is on the tall side, and it isn't on the maximum weight side.

    I would guess that, if all you wanted was run blocking, and you weren't going to create a pocket at all to pass protect, Nose Tackles would be better run blockers than today's oliners. Given training, not immediately, necessarily. It just seems to me that if you find DTs/NTs who are short, heavy and fast, they'll be able to push the other guy backward better than the slightly taller, thinner guy. The shorter, thinner guy with superior lateral agility perhaps, would be better at shielding the defense from the QB, making a wall. You don't see too many 6-1 340 5.03 olinemen, they're usually DTs. But they should be able to run block.

    Jelly Ellis was an All State Offensive Lineman in High School. Back when he was drafted, at his pro day, he ran 5.03 40 at 6014 334. He should be able to move the DL back a bit. I think it's more universally true that if you have a short, heavy, fast (and other good things) he should be ok at run blocking.





  5. #413

    Re: Ravens trading for Ngakoue

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    What has Justice Hill shown to have any value at all?

    Gus has proven across multiple seasons he is not only a 5ypc back in a Baltimore but has outperformed everyone he has shared a backfield on an efficiency basis. He is the proverbial underutilized player buried on a depth chart. He is EXACTLY what a team trading for a RB wants(2 cheap years, enough experience to step in day 1 but enough tread to earn his keep next year as well).


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    Hill has talent but the depth chart is crowded at the position. The running back position has become what the QB position has become and that's a necessity for dual threat capabilities.. triple threat if you include pass blocking.





  6. #414

    Re: Ravens trading for Ngakoue

    Quote Originally Posted by Culex View Post
    Hill has talent but the depth chart is crowded at the position. The running back position has become what the QB position has become and that's a necessity for dual threat capabilities.. triple threat if you include pass blocking.
    Hill is a no threat, if trade him for a bag of footballs.
    If Hill was any good at all we would not have drafted Dobbins: He’s clearly not worth remotely close to the z4th we used to acquire him, I would he HIGHLY surprised if he were were any guaranteed non conditional pick at this point, even a 7th.


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  7. #415

    Re: Ravens trading for Ngakoue

    Quote Originally Posted by jonboy79 View Post
    Hill is a no threat, if trade him for a bag of footballs.
    If Hill was any good at all we would not have drafted Dobbins: He’s clearly not worth remotely close to the z4th we used to acquire him, I would he HIGHLY surprised if he were were any guaranteed non conditional pick at this point, even a 7th.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Ummm Dobbins is completely a different type of running back compared to Hill. Ideally Hill is a scat back or a running back you want to use on obvious passing downs or occassionly. Dobbins on the other hand is viewed as a every down running back that could handle the load as the main running back. Overall saying if Hill was any good at all The Ravens would have not drafted Dobbins isn't a good statement at all.





  8. #416

    Re: Ravens trading for Ngakoue

    Quote Originally Posted by sflegend89 View Post
    Nobody wants to trade for Ingram. He's a declining RB that is 30+ and has racked up injuries from late 2019-now. Best hype man in the business, outstanding teammate, but his trade value is non-existent.

    I think teams are just finally realizing that if you don't have a good OL it doesn't matter who your RB is. Look at Barkley & Bell become absolute non-factors when the OL couldn't create lanes. RB is a position that is being rightfully de-valued imo. It's all about the OL, there are literally UDFA's every year that could rush for 1000 yds if you put them behind a premium run blocking OL.

    Justice Hill is the only trade candidate the Ravens have in their backfield and he's worth what.... like a 5th or 6th at best? The league is overflowing with RB talent, what it's not overflowing with is good OL's that can actually turn them loose.
    When it comes to trades, every year I think we fall into this trap of trying to assess who on the roster is expendable, and has value, with the mindset we'll go shopping for hole-filling talent using these expendable players as currency.

    Thinking about "what could X player bring in trade" isn't a very fruitful exercise. Aside from the fact that we sometimes overvalue that currency, it's also a case that it's the wrong end of the equation to key on when it comes to trades.

    Rather than look to our own roster, you need to look at everyone else's roster to diagnose situations where a team might have incentive to dump a good player who doesn't fit into their future. And then back into an offer that fits that team's needs.

    It sounds obvious. But DeCosta didn't land Marcus Peters because he started shopping Kenny Young around the league. DeCosta got Peters because he identified a situation where the Rams were not going to resign the guy and they needed his cap space to upgrade to Ramsey (I am guessing it helped the Eric is buddies with Jags GM David Caldwell, and got wind of the opportunity).

    Young's value wasn't empirical; it was 100% dependent on the Rams' unique situation.

    Campbell was acquired because he too was a player whose situation made him obtainable. Same with Ngakoue. The player came first; the compensation is secondary.

    So when we are on the buyer side of the equation we need to work backwards from the players we can identify as falling into this obtainable situation.

    Let's take the Jets as an example. They are probably going to have to reboot at QB and willl need a lot of draft picks to rebuild, so two names have come up as trade possibilities.

    One is Jamison Crowder, who is owed the remainder of his $8.5M salary this year and $10M next year. Maybe they would be interested in a running back prospect along with a draft pick, given that their running back is sixty-year old Frank Gore and questionable back ups, Ty Johnson and La'Mical Perine. Hell, maybe they'd even have interest in a Trace McSorley who you'd never think of as a trade chip otherwise. In the end, Crowder's salary is probably too much to bite off for the Ravens.

    The other player of interest would be slot CB Brian Poole. He is a much better fit for the Ravens. One, because he fills the Tavon Young role immediately. And two, because he is only owed the remainder of a $1.5M salary, and is a free agent next year. If he plays really well, and the price is right, they could re-sign him to fill Jimmy Smith's roster spot next year, or let him walk and still get a comp pick to offset whatever pick they used to trade for him. If it takes a middling pick and Justice Hill, great.

    Quote Originally Posted by John Reglarperson View Post
    "if you don't have a good OL it doesn't matter who your RB is. "

    I don't think it's exactly that. Good run blocking at other positions, TE, FB, WR, RB are also important. Additionally, you can have a line that is good and solid for pass protection but lacks whatever it is that you're looking for for run blocking.
    I won't deny that. Although, other than not having three tight ends, not a lot has changed with the WR, TE and FB personnel in running situations. Even with the tight ends, they only ran "13" personnel on 6% of their offensive snaps last year, so it's not like losing Hurst has killed the running game.

    Notwithstanding your point, this is really a case, in this situation, of it being an issue on the OL. Stanley has had some injury issues. Skura is working his way back from a devastating knee. And Yanda was a guy who could block two defenders last year, now handing-off his role to Phillips. As I rewatch games focusing on the line, I can see good performances across the board, but not on a consistent basis and often not everyone executing at the same time on a given play. They aren't in synch yet.

    Here's something else that I think might be noteworthy. I want to see what everyone here thinks.

    Not unlike the way we talk about trades—looking at our own roster first—shouldn't we consider the opposing defensive fronts they've faced?

    Other than Cincy, I think you can go back to before every game—Cleveland, Houston, KC, Washington, Philly--and ask where does the strength of this opponent lie? In every case the first player you name on defense is a Pro-Bowl level, disruptive, get-in-the backfield type of player in the box...sometimes more than one. Regardless of what the rankings for rushing defense say, I believe this type of opponent is a bad match up for the Ravens. Defenders who penetrate upfield quickly explain the the troubles we've seen with the Ravens pull-oriented blocking and reduced passing windows that have forced Jackson to go side-arm on so many throws.

    As I look at the remaining non-conference games—Cowboys, Giants, Jags, Patriots, Colts, Titans—I don't think you can say the same about premium penetrators up front. I expect we're going to be talking about how the Ravens offensive line came together in the second half of the season (and few will be talking about how they faced less daunting defensive fronts). The question will be how much of the gelling was real, come playoff time.





  9. #417
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    Re: Ravens trading for Ngakoue

    I don't know about Hill (or Edwards) trade value, but I do know it's silly to think anyone is going to trade for a 30 year old RB. Even if someone were interested, the return compensation would almost definitely NOT be worth trading their best team/glue guy for and potentially upsetting the locker room. Zero chance, literally zero chance, that Ingram is traded.
    back on twitter

    "Well that was an appropriate last ride for Pees. A Bengals WR streaking in for a game winning touchdown in the closing minutes is the man’s preferred medium to express his art." - GreenWave52





  10. #418
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    Re: Ravens trading for Ngakoue

    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    Thinking about "what could X player bring in trade" isn't a very fruitful exercise. Aside from the fact that we sometimes overvalue that currency, it's also a case that it's the wrong end of the equation to key on when it comes to trades.

    Rather than look to our own roster, you need to look at everyone else's roster to diagnose situations where a team might have incentive to dump a good player who doesn't fit into their future. And then back into an offer that fits that team's needs.

    It sounds obvious. But DeCosta didn't land Marcus Peters because he started shopping Kenny Young around the league. DeCosta got Peters because he identified a situation where the Rams were not going to resign the guy and they needed his cap space to upgrade to Ramsey
    THIS! This exactly.





  11. #419

    Re: Ravens trading for Ngakoue

    Quote Originally Posted by JimZipCode View Post
    THIS! This exactly.
    It's simply the same mindset any good leader has in battlefield type of planning and logistics.
    Knowing your enemy(competition) well gives the advantage of flushing out these opportunistic trade windows.
    Knowing your teams weaknesses and doing something proactive to fix it with new talent isn't something most GMs can do well, but EDC's power zone puts making trades others don't pull off right in his wheelhouse.
    Even though Ozzy was well respected and had a good relationship with other franchises still didn't equate to pulling the trigger on trades like these that often. He was more in the developing the player and having patience with the growing pains of said player vs. EDC, who understands short Championship windows require quick decisive action if you want to improve the roster.
    '





  12. #420

    Ravens trading for Ngakoue

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazz1988 View Post
    Ummm Dobbins is completely a different type of running back compared to Hill. Ideally Hill is a scat back or a running back you want to use on obvious passing downs or occassionly. Dobbins on the other hand is viewed as a every down running back that could handle the load as the main running back. Overall saying if Hill was any good at all The Ravens would have not drafted Dobbins isn't a good statement at all.
    You are correct the “different type of RB” is a viable NFL prospect.

    If Hill were a scar back than Hill could catch, run routes and pass block but I’m not sure he can do any of those things at an NFL level.
    Thus far, his only NFL level skill I have seen is a quick burst after receiving a handoff, and that is a skill most rookies enter the NFL with.

    Said another way, Hill has 2.5 years remaining on a couple year old 4th round contract. A bad team, such as the Jets, could likely get 4 years of similar level salary and play form any random 5th/6th round RB in next years draft Hill was massively over-drafted based on a quick 40. He is simply not a good player and I don’t see how he has any trade value at all at this point and will likely be our of the league in a couple years.
    Pass blocking is the only skill uncommonly found in rookie RB’s.


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