Remember, Diversity is Our Strength

[pickles]

The only one dodging here is you. You still need show where Sharia mandates rape and FGM.

Until you do that this conversation can't continue.

I'll take that as the loss it is.

You can't answer the question.

You can't answer the question because it completely destroys your own point regarding Islam.

You lose.

[bacchys]

I already have. It doesn't mandate it. It permits it.

But that was actually a tangent to the conversation from my perspective.

A distraction. The central point was the inherent incompatibility between Islam and the West.

You jump into a conversation and expect everyone to just understand you're not actually talking the same thing? Strange.

Given that the West arose out of Christian states I think that's a tough position to sell. I'd grant that those professing Christianity have at times been every bit as horrific and abusive as Muslims have been though. Islam has no monopoly on the infliction of human suffering. But I think there is a significant doctrinal distinction between the two. And that it translates to cultural behavioral differences in the modern world.

There have been Muslims in the West since before the Reconquista, and Muslims in the Americas since before we split from King George.

I think sometimes if you took a step back and heard what I actually say, instead of what you think I'm saying, we'd have a different conversation. I don't dismiss what Muslims have done. I don't seek to drive them from our country. I don't avoid them. I don't despise them.

I do however, recognize a significant cultural difference Between many palaces in the Muslim world.. and the culture of the West. And I believe it is a mistake therefore to support the idea of wholesale mass importation of people whose culture is so vastly different from ours, that they advocate the murder of people who reject their religious views, or murder of those who choose as adults to engage in same sex relationships.

I think this is a very dangerous trend. And if people with these beliefs are geographically concentrated in enclaves in the United States (as appears to be happening in many places) that we will be faced with attempts to usurp the individual liberty of non-Muslims in those areas, as appears to happen occasionally now. I think that's dangerous. And we should be able to have that conversation without the typical knee-jerk "you hate Muslims" nonsense.

I'm taking your words at face value. You're back-and-forth now. Muslims are great people (you even have friends!) you don't want to drive from the country, but they can't assimilate here in America or Europe? Is that about right?

I think that's a rather distorted view of reality. The Swedes welcome Islamists with open arms.. attempt to embrace them, invite them into their lives, have relationships with them, encourage their assimilation in very way. The results have been horrifying.

The Swedes didn't invite Islamists with open arms. They invited Muslims refugees. They haven't tried to assimilate them. They're strangers in a strange land, and the Islamic world itself is in turmoil. Even so, Islamists account for a small percentage of Muslims. Like far too many, you're conflating Islamism and Islam.

I am a big believer in the melting pot. It has worked wonders. If given sufficient time, dilution and cultural exchange, assimilation is almost a certainty.

But we're not doing any of those things (or weren't before we slowed the tap a little). We were during the later Obama years and even the early Trump years... engaged in the wholesale importation of Islamists from some of the most conflict riddled and fundamentalist areas of the world.

The result has been Little Mogadishu in Minneapolis. Or Dearborn. Or towns in Maine and Idaho. Where Muslim immigrants are concentrated and are not assimilating. Where they are attempting to do the opposite. To turn their own concentrated populations in America into what seems headed for Sharia. Is it there yet? No. Is it headed that way? I don't see what's going to stop it.

I'm suggesting maybe we pump the brakes a little.. Because there are inherent cultural differences between Islam and the West. And they take a generation to move toward assimilation. And we're not allowing for that. The results won't be good.

We weren't engaging in "wholesale importation of Islamists" during the Obama years. That's a massive exaggeration which undercuts your claims to dealing with reality here. Muslims still only number about 4 million people in the U.S., just over 1% of the population. "Little Mogadishu" isn't quite the crime-ridden hellhole of Great Replacement fever dreams, either. Violent crime is sufficiently low that a jump of 30 violent crimes in 2018 was a 50% increase. Nor is it unusual for ethnic enclaves of immigrants to have higher crime in our history. It's been true with every immigrant group from the Germans through the Irish, Jews, and Italians.

Somehow we managed to assimilate everyone else who came over here. You're right it takes a generation. Or two. What makes you think the Muslims are special?

[owknows]

You jump into a conversation and expect everyone to just understand you're not actually talking the same thing? Strange.

I was very clear about what I spoke on.

If you chose to conflate my words with others, that was not my failing.

There have been Muslims in the West since before the Reconquista, and Muslims in the Americas since before we split from King George.

The history of the early republic with Islam is well documented in Jefferson's correspondences during the Barbary Wars.

Jefferson went with John Adams to call upon Tripoli’s ambassador to London in March 1785. When they inquired by what right the Barbary states preyed upon American shipping, enslaving both crews and passengers, they were informed that “it was written in the Koran, that all Nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon whoever they could find and to make Slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.”

Sounds pretty familiar really.

I'm taking your words at face value. You're back-and-forth now. Muslims are great people (you even have friends!) you don't want to drive from the country, but they can't assimilate here in America or Europe? Is that about right?

Petty and childish distortion is not the same as honest discourse. I told you that I don't hate Muslims. Don't think they should made to leave our country. But that the culture of much of the Muslim world is very different from ours. In dangerous ways. And that assimilation takes time and dilution. And that our wholesale importation is not allowing for either. And that this is dangerous.

Misrepresenting it is not the same as refuting it.

The Swedes didn't invite Islamists with open arms. They invited Muslims refugees.

A distinction without a difference.

They haven't tried to assimilate them. They're strangers in a strange land, and the Islamic world itself is in turmoil. Even so, Islamists account for a small percentage of Muslims. Like far too many, you're conflating Islamism and Islam.

They've made ENORMOUS efforts to assimilate them. They've been repaid with hand-grenade attacks, car burnings, street attacks, and denial of access to entire neighborhoods.

We weren't engaging in "wholesale importation of Islamists" during the Obama years. That's a massive exaggeration which undercuts your claims to dealing with reality here. Muslims still only number about 4 million people in the U.S., just over 1% of the population. "Little Mogadishu" isn't quite the crime-ridden hellhole of Great Replacement fever dreams, either. Violent crime is sufficiently low that a jump of 30 violent crimes in 2018 was a 50% increase. Nor is it unusual for ethnic enclaves of immigrants to have higher crime in our history. It's been true with every immigrant group from the Germans through the Irish, Jews, and Italians.

Everything is rationalized.. and the point is always evaded.

The point was that when you mass import and then concentrate people who are not culturally compatible with the West, and do so in numbers large enough to gain local political control... you create a situation wherein traditional Muslim culture becomes enforced by law. This has already happened to a small degree in Dearborn, and will continue to happen.

As a society we are slowly losing the idea that we are a republic, and are being to allow unconstrained democratic action. Without deference to the rights of individuals. Couple that with highly concentrated 1st generation Muslim populations who believe that they are entitled to pass laws controlling the rights of others.. and I consider that a bad recipe.

You may not.. but if not argue the actual point, and not a caricature of the point.

Somehow we managed to assimilate everyone else who came over here. You're right it takes a generation. Or two. What makes you think the Muslims are special?

The greater (and more violent) degree of cultural difference, coupled with the high concentrations of 1st generation imports.

[bacchys]

I'll take that as the loss it is.

You can't answer the question.

You can't answer the question because it completely destroys your own point regarding Islam.

You lose.

Coming from the guy who can't provide anything to support his ranting, that's funny.

You lost, loser. Run away now.

[bacchys]

I was very clear about what I spoke on.

If you chose to conflate my words with others, that was not my failing.

Actually, you haven't been clear. Clear would be making an express effort to distinguish between your views and those you've jumped alongside, as well as not conflating Islam with Islamism.

The history of the early republic with Islam is well documented in Jefferson's correspondences during the Barbary Wars.

Jefferson went with John Adams to call upon Tripoli’s ambassador to London in March 1785. When they inquired by what right the Barbary states preyed upon American shipping, enslaving both crews and passengers, they were informed that “it was written in the Koran, that all Nations who should not have acknowledged their authority were sinners, that it was their right and duty to make war upon whoever they could find and to make Slaves of all they could take as prisoners, and that every Mussulman who should be slain in battle was sure to go to Paradise.”

Sounds pretty familiar really.

It does. It sounds similar to defenses of slavery by Jefferson's contemporaries here in the U.S., though they based it on the Bible and not the Quran.

Petty and childish distortion is not the same as honest discourse. I told you that I don't hate Muslims. Don't think they should made to leave our country. But that the culture of much of the Muslim world is very different from ours. In dangerous ways. And that assimilation takes time and dilution. And that our wholesale importation is not allowing for either. And that this is dangerous.

Misrepresenting it is not the same as refuting it.

Pretending someone has distorted your statements when they haven't isn't honest. You're the one who keeps using "Islamist" and, like your fellow, insisting Sharia mandates certain actions. You also haven't supported those assertions. In fact, you've provided zero support for anything you've written here about Islam and Muslims.

They've made ENORMOUS efforts to assimilate them. They've been repaid with hand-grenade attacks, car burnings, street attacks, and denial of access to entire neighborhoods.

No, they haven't.

Everything is rationalized.. and the point is always evaded.

The point was that when you mass import and then concentrate people who are not culturally compatible with the West, and do so in numbers large enough to gain local political control... you create a situation wherein traditional Muslim culture becomes enforced by law. This has already happened to a small degree in Dearborn, and will continue to happen.

It's not a rationalization to point out your complaints here apply to every wave of immigrants in U.S. history, as already noted, and that you're radically overstating (and failing to support) your wild claims about Muslims in America.

As a society we are slowly losing the idea that we are a republic, and are being to allow unconstrained democratic action. Without deference to the rights of individuals. Couple that with highly concentrated 1st generation Muslim populations who believe that they are entitled to pass laws controlling the rights of others.. and I consider that a bad recipe.

You may not.. but if not argue the actual point, and not a caricature of the point.

Then make an actual point instead of a wild, unsupported caricature of a point. Point to these laws being passed by Muslim majorities.

The greater (and more violent) degree of cultural difference, coupled with the high concentrations of 1st generation imports.

Yeah, those Italians will never fit in with Americans. Damn Mafia.


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[pickles]

Coming from the guy who can't provide anything to support his ranting, that's funny.

You lost, loser. Run away now.

No swamp rat. I'll just keep exposing you for the vacuous moron that you are.

Answer the question:

If I were to sell my nine year old daughter to her 30 year old first cousin to marry and fornicate with, we would consider that child abuse and rape.

In Islamic societies this is a perfectly acceptable marraige.

Does the West and Islamic societies define rape in the same way?

It's a very simple question. Try again swamp rat. For the fifth time now.

[New !]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...rtation-orders

[BustOfPallas]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/...rtation-orders

I'm sure there's no sensationalism going on in this story.

Btw, has the SPLC or ADL put ICE on it's domestic terror/hate group list yet?

Let's demonize police and ICE and our military some more please. We don't need law, order, or a safe and secure country.

We can just send highly funded "social services" workers to hotspots in the world. "Hello Mr. terrorist, My name is Sandy and I'm a LCSW. Do you want to talk about your feelings after you saw that mans head off?"

[pickles]

I'm not sure what those accusations have to do with the OP.

I'm still waiting for Bush's swamp rat to answer my question.

[New !]

I'm sure there's no sensationalism going on in this story.

Btw, has the SPLC or ADL put ICE on it's domestic terror/hate group list yet?

Let's demonize police and ICE and our military some more please. We don't need law, order, or a safe and secure country.

We can just send highly funded "social services" workers to hotspots in the world. "Hello Mr. terrorist, My name is Sandy and I'm a LCSW. Do you want to talk about your feelings after you saw that mans head off?"

Cops breaking the law and abusing people? Sounds like law and order to me! Say, why are all these darn blacks out protesting again....

[New !]

I'm not sure what those accusations have to do with the OP.

I'm still waiting for Bush's swamp rat to answer my question.

Maybe I’m missing something but it seems like the rhetoric In the OP could lead to situations like the above.

[New !]

Any of you guys to seen the show Immigration Nation? I don’t know about all ICE agents but the ones they showed on there seemed to be sick in the head. Taking videos of their “catches” and sending it to their buddies like they’re playing Pokémon.