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  1. #109
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    Re: A death in dueling Denver protests

    "Law and order" authoritarians never disappoint.

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  2. #110
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    Re: A death in dueling Denver protests

    Quote Originally Posted by bacchys View Post
    "Law and order" authoritarians never disappoint.

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    Fake security guards=law and order?

    Of course it doesn't you stupid swamp rat.





  3. #111

    Re: A death in dueling Denver protests

    Quote Originally Posted by bacchys View Post
    Doloff charged with second-degree murder.

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ed-murder.html

    I noticed there's no hand-wringing about second-guessing split-second decisions from law enforcement or prosecutors in this case.

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    What's to hand wring about. 2nd degree sounds like about the right charge.

    You are conflating a guy that's not police illegally posing as a security guard and drawing his gun on a man with his arms at his sides in the presence of about 5 heavily armed police in broad daylight.

    Do you think you are making good analogy or drawing a logical parallel here?

    This is bad even for you.





  4. #112

    Re: A death in dueling Denver protests

    Quote Originally Posted by BustOfPallas View Post
    What's to hand wring about. 2nd degree sounds like about the right charge.

    You are conflating a guy that's not police illegally posing as a security guard and drawing his gun on a man with his arms at his sides in the presence of about 5 heavily armed police in broad daylight.

    Do you think you are making good analogy or drawing a logical parallel here?

    This is bad even for you.
    If they find out that Doloff was working with the news crew to drum up some excitement it could very well be murder in the first. But he'll spend the rest of his life behind bars with murder in the second, so that'll work.
    "A moron, a rapist, and a Pittsburgh Steeler walk into a bar. He sits down and says, “Hi I’m Ben may I have a drink please?”
    ProFootballMock





  5. #113
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    Re: A death in dueling Denver protests

    Quote Originally Posted by pickles View Post
    Fake security guards=law and order?

    Of course it doesn't you stupid swamp rat.
    Tsk, tsk. Bust of Pallas will be along to whine about your namecalling...
    Last edited by bacchys; 10-21-2020 at 08:05 AM.





  6. #114
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    Re: A death in dueling Denver protests

    Quote Originally Posted by BustOfPallas View Post
    What's to hand wring about. 2nd degree sounds like about the right charge.

    You are conflating a guy that's not police illegally posing as a security guard and drawing his gun on a man with his arms at his sides in the presence of about 5 heavily armed police in broad daylight.

    Do you think you are making good analogy or drawing a logical parallel here?

    This is bad even for you.
    I'm not conflating anything. I'm pointing out the difference in how police use of force gets "investigated" compared to others. Legally, their standards of self-defense aren't different than those who aren't law enforcement. The same standards of proportionality and reasonable fear of death or grievous bodily injury apply.

    He wasn't "illegally posing as a security guard," either. He may have been illegally working as security, but he was working as security. He wasn't posing. He may also have unlawfully carried his pistol, but that's not relevant to whether his use of deadly force was reasonable self-defense or not.

    Keltner's hands weren't at his sides, either. He had belligerently assaulted another man, and then turned to assault either Doloff or the 9News reporter, then struck Doloff just before getting shot. The earlier belligerence is on video. The assault on Doloff is captured in photographs.

    Doloff has a clear case of self-defense. The only question is whether deadly force was justified. Since he's been charged with 2d murder, it looks as though the state is saying bear spray isn't sufficient force to justify deadly force in response. As I've been unable to find any CO precedent on the subject, I don't know if that's correct as a matter of law.

    It's also been interesting to see people who are adamant Rittenhouse shooting the unarmed Rosenbaum is self-defense who are equally adamant Doloff shooting the armed Keltner is not. The only consistent part of their analysis seems to be they side with whoever's politics match their own.



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  7. #115

    Re: A death in dueling Denver protests

    Quote Originally Posted by bacchys View Post
    I'm not conflating anything. I'm pointing out the difference in how police use of force gets "investigated" compared to others. Legally, their standards of self-defense aren't different than those who aren't law enforcement. The same standards of proportionality and reasonable fear of death or grievous bodily injury apply.

    He wasn't "illegally posing as a security guard," either. He may have been illegally working as security, but he was working as security. He wasn't posing. He may also have unlawfully carried his pistol, but that's not relevant to whether his use of deadly force was reasonable self-defense or not.

    Keltner's hands weren't at his sides, either. He had belligerently assaulted another man, and then turned to assault either Doloff or the 9News reporter, then struck Doloff just before getting shot. The earlier belligerence is on video. The assault on Doloff is captured in photographs.

    Doloff has a clear case of self-defense. The only question is whether deadly force was justified. Since he's been charged with 2d murder, it looks as though the state is saying bear spray isn't sufficient force to justify deadly force in response. As I've been unable to find any CO precedent on the subject, I don't know if that's correct as a matter of law.

    It's also been interesting to see people who are adamant Rittenhouse shooting the unarmed Rosenbaum is self-defense who are equally adamant Doloff shooting the armed Keltner is not. The only consistent part of their analysis seems to be they side with whoever's politics match their own.



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    Ha ha. Yeah okay.

    https://www.denverpost.com/2020/10/2...d-lee-keltner/

    Rittenhouse was fleeing. All of the video footage of Rittenhouse is him running away and being chased. Retreating. Trying to avoid confrontation. There was a guy with Rosenbaum, right behind both that fired a gun right before the incident that caused Rittenhouse to turn, Rittenhouse was cornered and Rosenbaum went for his gun. Add it up, the gun shot, retreating, being chased, being cornered, having someone try to grab your weapon... all of which is not in dispute.... C'mon man. Do you really think these two situations are equivalent.





  8. #116
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    Re: A death in dueling Denver protests

    You're seeing what you want to see. Rittenhouse is running. Whether he's fleeing or not we don't know. Rosenbaum was still unarmed, though he clearly was the aggressor in their encounter.

    Further, CO is a Stand Your Ground state. Doloff wasn't required to retreat. He was entitled to stand his ground and meet force with force. Keltner was the aggressor in the confrontation, just as Rosenbaum was.

    The laws in the two states might differ in significant ways, but the main question with respect to both shootings is the same: was deadly force justifiable self-defense in those circumstances.

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  9. #117

    Re: A death in dueling Denver protests

    Quote Originally Posted by bacchys View Post
    You're seeing what you want to see. Rittenhouse is running. Whether he's fleeing or not we don't know.
    Running with people chasing you is pretty much the definition of fleeing.





  10. #118
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    Re: A death in dueling Denver protests

    Only if you're aware they're chasing.

    There were more than a few people running in those videos, and most of them weren't fleeing or chasing.



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