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  1. #25

    Re: An early look-back at draft day decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    I'm all for chilling the atmosphere here. I'm probably guilty of overreacting to your use of the word dumb. I'm sure you meant no harm and others will tell you (NJRaven) I sometimes have thin skin, taking it too personally.

    I'm actually fine if you or anyone else says that it's entirely meaningless to look at stats. Frankly, I don't watch every team and so I couldn't tell you how those other players were doing. I leaned on snaps and stats as a proxy for first hand knowledge.

    Let's agree to revisit the topic midseason, knowing that it make take three years to fully judge the draft.
    I agree. And I apologized earlier for my use of “dumb”. I should have worded what I meant better.

    And trust me when I say that you aren’t the most thinned skin or only one here. Like I said in my last post, there’s a handful of guys here that you aren’t allowed to disagree with if it pertains to the Ravens.





  2. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
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    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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    30,965

    Re: An early look-back at draft day decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens4Real View Post
    I agree. And I apologized earlier for my use of “dumb”. I should have worded what I meant better.

    And trust me when I say that you aren’t the most thinned skin or only one here. Like I said in my last post, there’s a handful of guys here that you aren’t allowed to disagree with if it pertains to the Ravens.
    We agreed to chill, so all I'm going to say is....lol.
    "Cause if you ain’t pissed off for greatness, that just means you’re okay with being mediocre, and ain’t no man in here okay with just basic.”
    - Ray Lewis

    https://www.baltimoreravens.com/author/cole-jackson

    Twitter: @ColeJacksonFB





  3. #27
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Ottawa, Ontario, Canada
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    30,965

    Re: An early look-back at draft day decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    I totally agree with you on OT.

    I've said from the beginning, if they lose either tackle they're fucked, more so than any other position.

    I have scratched my head over their tendency to accumulate interior OL over tackles. To wit, over the last ten drafts...

    3. Phillips
    4. Bredeson
    4. Powers
    6. Bozeman
    4. Siragusa
    5. Eluemanor
    4. Lewis
    5. Meyers
    5. Urshel
    6. Jensen
    2. Osemele
    4. Gradkowski
    3. Reid

    If you through in back of roster guys who they didn't draft you see more interior guys: Hurst, Skura, Mekari, Fluker, Grasu, Ehinger, Bergstrom, etc.

    They seem to have the philosophy of accumulating a lot of interior depth and see what sticks. They have a long history of converting college tackles to the interior: Mulitalo, Yanda, Osemele, Jensen, Lewis, Eluemanor, Phillips, Hurst. Part of that is seem mostly interested in swing G/T types. It's probably a value consideration looking at all those picks in rounds 4-6 and UDFAs.

    OTOH, they have rarely drafted pure tackles in this same span.

    3. Brown
    6. Senat
    1. Stanley
    5. Wagner

    I guess we will have to wait and see how rookie tackles like Matt Peart and Ben Bartch (two names I thought they might like, who went 99 and 116) turn out. Neither have taken a snap yet, even though it's dumb to judge them on that ;)
    It's very confusing to me.

    I didn't get it at the time and it's similar to Marshall over Amandi (I had a huge draft crush on Amandi so it doesnt need ot be him specifically, but he was a sCB, dS and a ST guy so it seemed like a great fit). You're drafting a skillset you have an excess of (they had AA as a young developmental guy at the time), instead of one that you don't have any depth for.

    Same concept at IOL over OT.

    I loved Bredeson as a prospect and there's obvioulsy reasoning to support getting the best player instead of just purely need, but Bredeson seems like a luxury pick with how things have shaken out. We have a C/G porspect IA every game who is going to compete with Mekari who we have cheap cost control of who fits the same role, but then don't draft an OT.

    Similar concept to Marshall over a sCB prospect IMO.

    Oh look, I'm not just posting positive things. Weird eh
    "Cause if you ain’t pissed off for greatness, that just means you’re okay with being mediocre, and ain’t no man in here okay with just basic.”
    - Ray Lewis

    https://www.baltimoreravens.com/author/cole-jackson

    Twitter: @ColeJacksonFB





  4. #28
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
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    Greenville, SC
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    Re: An early look-back at draft day decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhiteNorthRaven View Post
    It's very confusing to me.

    I didn't get it at the time and it's similar to Marshall over Amandi (I had a huge draft crush on Amandi so it doesnt need ot be him specifically, but he was a sCB, dS and a ST guy so it seemed like a great fit). You're drafting a skillset you have an excess of (they had AA as a young developmental guy at the time), instead of one that you don't have any depth for.

    Same concept at IOL over OT.

    I loved Bredeson as a prospect and there's obvioulsy reasoning to support getting the best player instead of just purely need, but Bredeson seems like a luxury pick with how things have shaken out. We have a C/G porspect IA every game who is going to compete with Mekari who we have cheap cost control of who fits the same role, but then don't draft an OT.

    Similar concept to Marshall over a sCB prospect IMO.

    Oh look, I'm not just posting positive things. Weird eh
    The bolded is the part where the FO sees things differently. "Luxury pick" isn't really a thing for them. I mean, sure, they're not going to take a QB or kicker in the first round next year.

    But generally, they believe that what looks like a luxury pick this year could be an essential building block of your team in future years. Todd Heap, JK Dobbins -- hell the very first pick the organization ever made was for a LT when they had a Pro Bowl LT and desperately needed a RB.

    They would rather have a guy that they believe will play above his draft number for years to come than a guy who is, on paper, going to fill a need on their roster.
    "Chin up, chest out."





  5. #29

    Re: An early look-back at draft day decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhiteNorthRaven View Post
    It's very confusing to me....
    Oh look, I'm not just posting positive things. Weird eh
    You're such an ass ;)

    The one thing I tend to remind myself about is that, and it's probably Harbs' influence, they tend to weigh character/intangibles heavily. Look at Phillips, for instance. Zrebiec just did a nice profile piece on him in The Athletic, revealing he was a church choir kid with a minister father who really wanted to get a band scholarship, was talked into football in 10th grade, and then nearly quit until a basketball coach pushed him back into it a week before the coach died at 33. It was a "moment" for Phillips. And then worked his way from community college to Miss St. (the Yanda story). And I recall how Harbs hounded Eric into drafting Phillips after seeing him first hand at the Sr. Bowl. I just kept thinking, this kid has Harbaugh written all over him. Religious. Thoughtful. Overcame obstacles.

    My sense is, after they get past the first couple picks, intangibles are a huge factor in their drafting, more than need or measurables.

    I can't blame them, it's served them well. They have developed interior linemen and hit on late rounders more often than most teams.

    I think part of the OT issue is that Decosta has been focused on adding faster skill players with premium picks.

    I do think tackle, corner and edge should be their priority next year. They will also need a plan to replace Campbell and Wolfe sooner than later.





  6. #30

    Re: An early look-back at draft day decisions

    Part of what makes these iOL picks a luxury, maybe, is that they don't contribute on special teams, unlike most other positions except QB. So you can have a guy like Powers not dress for an entire season just to develop him.





  7. #31
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    Balt-Wash corridor
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    24,538

    Re: An early look-back at draft day decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens4Real View Post
    What does this even mean?
    Upside. Theoretically the younger player, if everything else is equal (it never ever is), will blossom more and ultimately prove to be the better player with the longer career.





  8. #32
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Balt-Wash corridor
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    Re: An early look-back at draft day decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    The one thing I tend to remind myself about is that, and it's probably Harbs' influence, they tend to weigh character/intangibles heavily. Look at Phillips, for instance. Zrebiec just did a nice profile piece on him in The Athletic, revealing he was a church choir kid with a minister father who really wanted to get a band scholarship, was talked into football in 10th grade, and then nearly quit until a basketball coach pushed him back into it a week before the coach died at 33. It was a "moment" for Phillips. And then worked his way from community college to Miss St. (the Yanda story). And I recall how Harbs hounded Eric into drafting Phillips after seeing him first hand at the Sr. Bowl. I just kept thinking, this kid has Harbaugh written all over him. Religious. Thoughtful. Overcame obstacles.
    Not to disparage any of that, but Harbs also saw Phillips in a specific role: big-bodied mauling RG, filling Yanda's spot. I dont think the church-choir minister's kid stuff pushed Philips up half a round on the Ravens draft board.





  9. #33

    Re: An early look-back at draft day decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    I totally agree with you on OT.

    I've said from the beginning, if they lose either tackle they're fucked, more so than any other position.

    I have scratched my head over their tendency to accumulate interior OL over tackles. To wit, over the last ten drafts...

    3. Phillips
    4. Bredeson
    4. Powers
    6. Bozeman
    4. Siragusa
    5. Eluemanor
    4. Lewis
    5. Meyers
    5. Urshel
    6. Jensen
    2. Osemele
    4. Gradkowski
    3. Reid

    If you through in back of roster guys who they didn't draft you see more interior guys: Hurst, Skura, Mekari, Fluker, Grasu, Ehinger, Bergstrom, etc.

    They seem to have the philosophy of accumulating a lot of interior depth and see what sticks. They have a long history of converting college tackles to the interior: Mulitalo, Yanda, Osemele, Jensen, Lewis, Eluemanor, Phillips, Hurst. Part of that is seem mostly interested in swing G/T types. It's probably a value consideration looking at all those picks in rounds 4-6 and UDFAs.

    OTOH, they have rarely drafted pure tackles in this same span.

    3. Brown
    6. Senat
    1. Stanley
    5. Wagner

    I guess we will have to wait and see how rookie tackles like Matt Peart and Ben Bartch (two names I thought they might like, who went 99 and 116) turn out. Neither have taken a snap yet, even though it's dumb to judge them on that ;)

    I can kind of see why IOL would be valued more. Pressured up the middle would destroy our run game and pocket, whereas outside pressure, Lamar have the skillset to roll opposite and escape. The titans game, simmons and company punked us.

    It's true though, we're playing a risky game by not having any solid depth behind our 2 pro bowlers.





  10. #34

    Re: An early look-back at draft day decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    I totally agree with you on OT.

    I've said from the beginning, if they lose either tackle they're fucked, more so than any other position.

    I have scratched my head over their tendency to accumulate interior OL over tackles. To wit, over the last ten drafts...

    3. Phillips
    4. Bredeson
    4. Powers
    6. Bozeman
    4. Siragusa
    5. Eluemanor
    4. Lewis
    5. Meyers
    5. Urshel
    6. Jensen
    2. Osemele
    4. Gradkowski
    3. Reid

    If you through in back of roster guys who they didn't draft you see more interior guys: Hurst, Skura, Mekari, Fluker, Grasu, Ehinger, Bergstrom, etc.

    They seem to have the philosophy of accumulating a lot of interior depth and see what sticks. They have a long history of converting college tackles to the interior: Mulitalo, Yanda, Osemele, Jensen, Lewis, Eluemanor, Phillips, Hurst. Part of that is seem mostly interested in swing G/T types. It's probably a value consideration looking at all those picks in rounds 4-6 and UDFAs.

    OTOH, they have rarely drafted pure tackles in this same span.

    3. Brown
    6. Senat
    1. Stanley
    5. Wagner

    I guess we will have to wait and see how rookie tackles like Matt Peart and Ben Bartch (two names I thought they might like, who went 99 and 116) turn out. Neither have taken a snap yet, even though it's dumb to judge them on that ;)
    They do this because there are many times more college lineman who can play interior line than those who can tackles. It's just a numbers game.





  11. #35

    Re: An early look-back at draft day decisions

    Quote Originally Posted by RavensPPark View Post
    They do this because there are many times more college lineman who can play interior line than those who can tackles. It's just a numbers game.
    Yeah I also think they figure if they are picking a guy who is a “tackle” in the later rounds, chances are the guy is really an interior guy anyway. So no matter how you label it, once you’re in the later rounds you’re probably drafting a guy you think will probably be an interior linemen, with the hope that you can keep him at tackle if he surprises you in camp.

    If I had to guess I would think they drafted Wagner with this thought process: “He has some tackle traits and it would be great if those translated to the NFL but chances are he will be a guard.” Luckily, he worked out but I’m pretty sure if the knee he’d be that good of a tackle they would have gotten him sooner.





  12. #36

    Re: An early look-back at draft day decisions

    The main thing I remember about the draft was someone freaking out over not drafting Denzel Mims, who hasn’t played a snap yet.





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