Bradley Bozeman

[LukeDaniel]

*Side note and not meant to derail, but 6 HOFers in 24 years is freaking ridiculous.

This might surprise you a bit, but six HOFers in a single decade (let alone 24 years) was extremely common in prior eras of the NFL.

Can you believe that the 60s era Packers had 12 at the same time? There was only one year where all 12 played at the same time, but still amazing.

The 70s Steelers had 10. What makes that particularly crazy is that all ten of them played TOGETHER on the same team for a total of EIGHT consecutive seasons (1974-1981). The Steelers actually drafted four HOFs in the 1974 draft alone (Swann-although he has no business being in the HOF + Stallworth, Webster, and Lambert). Donnie Shell also was undrafted out of the 74 class.

Even teams that were not exactly dynastic like the Chiefs and Vikings of the 60s/70s had 5-6 HOFers on them playing at the same time.

The Raiders and Cowboys of the late 60s through early 80s also had a bunch of players drafted that wound up in the Hall (8 or 9 each).

There was a very odd and imbalanced HOF election process 30-40 years ago. Teams that won Super Bowls had an avalanche of players get in whose merits were highly questionable (Swann, Bradshaw, Namath, Rayfield Wright, Larry Csonka just off the top of my head).

Meanwhile, the Orange Crush Broncos of the 70s have zero players in the HOF. Neither do some damn good Bengals teams.

Randy Gradishar not being in is absurd. 7 pro bowls and a DPOY award and the guy is pushing 70 years old without a call from the Hall yet. Ken Anderson, Lemar Parrish, and Ken Riley should all be in Canton, but none of them has really even gotten all that close. 10 Steelers and 0 Bengals. Ken Riley just died 3 months ago without getting his much deserved career recognition. Riley and Parrish were the best CB tandem in football during the 1970s, but they had the misfortune of playing in Cincinnati.


The 2007 Ravens had all five of the Mount Rushmore players on it (Suggs, Yanda, JO, Lewis, Reed) plus Ngata, who I consider a borderline HOFer. Ironically, that was one of the two worst Raven teams we've seen in the last 20 years.

Off the top of my head, I can only think of one team over the last 25 years who had a comparable 5 HOFer roster. The 2001 Rams had Warner (who IMO is not a Hall of Famer), plus Faulk, Bruce, Pace, and Williams. Holt would make a 6th if he gets into Canton. I think his chances are better than Haloti's. However, of those 5 players listed for that 01 Rams team, they only drafted two (Pace, Bruce). The Ravens, of course, drafted all five.

Prior to the 01 Rams, the previous team (again, working from memory) that had Five HOFers on the same roster was the 96 cowboys with Aikman, Irvin, Smith, Larry Allen, and Haley. Haley was an edgy HOF selection and I might not make a lot of friends in Dallas saying this, but so is Troy Aikman in my opinion.

The 1990-93 Vikings also had 5 HOFers on their roster, which was unexpected given they only won more than 9 games in that four year stretch one time. Four were drafted by the Vikes. Doleman, McDaniel, Randle, Zimmerman. Cris Carter was an Eagles draft pick. All 5, just like the Ravens five, are totally legit.

These are the only ones I can think of in the last 30 years.

[Unibomber]

Looking again at the 2018 draft we have

Lamar Jackson
Mark Andrews
Orlando Brown Jr
Hayden Hurst --> JK Dobbins
Kenny Young (+ 5th) --> Marcus Peters

..and now Bozeman and Elliott who are both coming into their own as starters. Even Anthony Averett still has a chance especially with the Tavon Young injury.

Could go down as one of the franchise defining drafts in NFL history.

+ Gus the Bus undrafted.

[JimZipCode]

Can you believe that the 60s era Packers had 12 at the same time? There was only one year where all 12 played at the same time, but still amazing.

The 70s Steelers had 10. What makes that particularly crazy is that all ten of them played TOGETHER on the same team for a total of EIGHT consecutive seasons (1974-1981). The Steelers actually drafted four HOFs in the 1974 draft alone (Swann-although he has no business being in the HOF + Stallworth, Webster, and Lambert). Donnie Shell also was undrafted out of the 74 class.
...
There was a very odd and imbalanced HOF election process 30-40 years ago. Teams that won Super Bowls had an avalanche of players get in whose merits were highly questionable

You hit the nail on the head here. Dynasty champions were over-rewarded with HOF selections.

I'm surprised the Hall voters haven't rewarded more defenders from the early-00's Patriots teams.

Off the top of my head, I can only think of one team over the last 25 years who had a comparable 5 HOFer roster. The 2001 Rams had Warner (who IMO is not a Hall of Famer), plus Faulk, Bruce,

Warner's a pretty solid HOF selection. For one thing, it's useful to remember that if Big Ben doesn't complete that miracle pass to Santonio Holmes, it's Warner rather than Peyton who's the first QB to win SBs for two different teams.

For another thing – I like to look at this tool from PFR to help clarify my thinking:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/hof/hofm_QB.htm
(This page has the ILBs ranked, including Gradishar.)

Not the be-all / end-all, but it's useful. Warner's HOF resume clocks in between Snake Stabler's and Dan Fouts'; and better than 7 or 8 HOF QBs. I think he's a fine choice, and I respect the voters for making it drama-free.

We live in a strange era for QBs. On the one hand, Manning & Brady completely break our idea of what a HOF QB "should be". On the other hand, that PFR tool implies that Matt Ryan & Phillip Rovers are HOFers, and that seems fishy to me; a possible product of stat amplification in an era where "compiling" has never been easier.

[LukeDaniel]

You hit the nail on the head here. Dynasty champions were over-rewarded with HOF selections.

I'm surprised the Hall voters haven't rewarded more defenders from the early-00's Patriots teams.


Warner's a pretty solid HOF selection. For one thing, it's useful to remember that if Big Ben doesn't complete that miracle pass to Santonio Holmes, it's Warner rather than Peyton who's the first QB to win SBs for two different teams.

For another thing – I like to look at this tool from PFR to help clarify my thinking:

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/hof/hofm_QB.htm
(This page has the ILBs ranked, including Gradishar.)

Not the be-all / end-all, but it's useful. Warner's HOF resume clocks in between Snake Stabler's and Dan Fouts'; and better than 7 or 8 HOF QBs. I think he's a fine choice, and I respect the voters for making it drama-free.

We live in a strange era for QBs. On the one hand, Manning & Brady completely break our idea of what a HOF QB "should be". On the other hand, that PFR tool implies that Matt Ryan & Phillip Rovers are HOFers, and that seems fishy to me; a possible product of stat amplification in an era where "compiling" has never been easier.

If you look at Kurt Warner, the guy only had 6 good years. I'm not talking six good years and another 4-5 solid, okay years. The guy really only played six meaningful seasons. The rest of his career he was either too hurt or too bad to contribute to his team.

Now six great seasons are enough to get you into Canton at a lot of positions. There are quite a few examples of this across recent football history with guys like Dwight Stephenson and particularly at the RB position with Earl Campbell and Terrell Davis. Gale Sayers (RIP) is another great example. Dominant players who had careers truncated by injury. This has never been the formula for the quarterback position. If you look at every post 1950 HOF QB, each one had at least eight meaningful seasons. All but two had double digits seasons as a contributor. Young and Staubach had eight. Staubach led the NFL in passer rating four of those eight years. Young had a stretch where he led the league in passer rating 6 times in 7 year span (remarkable). Again, Warner only had six meaningful seasons.

Had those six years each been Mahomes-eque, then put him in Canton. They weren't though. His 99 season was miraculous and HOF worthy. The next year he had a good season, although with a 21/18 TD/INT ratio. His 2001 season was great, but again he threw 22 INTs. I'd also classify his 2008 Arizona season as great. So the guy basically had 3 great seasons and 3 good seasons. That formula for HOF has never worked for any QB other than Warner. Thats why I'm unsure why he was voted in.

My skepticism abounds when you look at his surrounding cast of characters. I'm not sure if there has ever been a QB propped up more by his teammates. In Arizona he had Boldin and Fitz in their primes, playing in ideal passing atmosphere. In St Louis, it was even more absurd. First ballot HOFer (Pace) protecting his blind side. He had a top 5 running back of all-time (Faulk), and undeniably the best pass catching RB ever, in the backfield with him. He was also throwing to two HOF WRs in Bruce and Holt.

Oh yea, he played in a dome which typically enhances passer rating by 5-6 points over playing outside.

I think a lot of non HOF caliber quarterbacks would have posted robust #s in such an ideal atmosphere. It was the perfect storm for any QB to succeed, and Warner was a benefactor of such extreme good fortune. Take away these ideal conditions, and I dont see anything special. Put Drew Bledsoe in a similar setting, and he's in Canton on the first ballot.

Warner is massively overrated IMO.

[4Fights]

Amazing what this team has been able to do with developmental line prospects. I mean, Bozeman was a center that was a seen as a slow-footed bruiser and we turn him into a starting LG who's biggest strength is his ability to get out in space. Incredible.

For all the knocks on the right side of the line (justifiably so), we've actually run better to the right than to the left. However that's probably a statistical anomaly because we absolutely wore the Texans out by the fourth quarter of that game. We could've run backwards and still moved the sticks.

[JimZipCode]

Ken Filmstudy's OL scoring for week two is up:

https://www.filmstudybaltimore.com/week-2-offense-2020/

Bradley B had a good game. Ken grades him with an A- after adjustment.

Seems like the whole OL had a pretty good game – except the rookie, he got pwned.

[PTORaven]

The 2007 Ravens had all five of the Mount Rushmore players on it (Suggs, Yanda, JO, Lewis, Reed) plus Ngata, who I consider a borderline HOFer. Ironically, that was one of the two worst Raven teams we've seen in the last 20 years.

Off the top of my head, I can only think of one team over the last 25 years who had a comparable 5 HOFer roster.

2004 Ravens also had five: JO, Reed, Lewis, Suggs, and Deion Sanders.

[HotInHere]

Off the top of my head, I can only think of one team over the last 25 years who had a comparable 5 HOFer roster. The 2001 Rams had Warner (who IMO is not a Hall of Famer), plus Faulk, Bruce, Pace, and Williams. Holt would make a 6th if he gets into Canton. I think his chances are better than Haloti's. However, of those 5 players listed for that 01 Rams team, they only drafted two (Pace, Bruce). The Ravens, of course, drafted all five.

Much as I hate to remember them, the Steelers had Ben, Bettis, and Polamalu who are definite HoFers. Faneca should be in. Hines Ward could ultimately make five. Casey Hampton is another borderline player, similar to Ngata.

BTW, I agree with your take on Aikman. Solid player, but damn, that team was SOOO loaded. Playing QB behind a line full of Pro Bowlers, with all those receiving options, and oh yeah, getting to hand off to Emmitt Smith, you gotta grade that guy on a curve.

[JimZipCode]

I think a lot of non HOF caliber quarterbacks would have posted robust #s in such an ideal atmosphere. It was the perfect storm for any QB to succeed, and Warner was a benefactor of such extreme good fortune. Take away these ideal conditions, and I dont see anything special. Put Drew Bledsoe in a similar setting, and he's in Canton on the first ballot.

Warner is massively overrated IMO.

Yeah, that's the argument against him.

I think it's overstated. One aspect to the assessment of Warner is his style of play. Warner had the kind of pinpoint deep-ball that few QBs in the game have ever had. For pure deep-ball passing he ranks among the guys like Marino, Mahomes, etc. I think I agree with you that Marshall Faulk was probably the best player on those Greatest Show On Turf offenses; but I think Warner made the WRs. It was his arm that drove those offenses, not Bruce's and Holt's extraordinary talents (though they were very good).

Also, to me it matters that Warner was seconds away from being a 3-time SB winner. Adam Vinatieri's FG in the 2001 SB came with no time on the clock, and the Ben-to-Santonio-Holmes TD came with 35 secs left. Absent that second play, Warner would have led a 4th-quarter comeback win in the SB, to become the first QB to win it for two different teams. I don't know if the Hall voters consider such "almost / second-place / also-ran" things, but it matters to me when it's that close.

Warner is one of only 9 players to ever win MVP two times. Seven (incl Warner) of the nine are in the Hall; the other two are Tom Brady & Aaron Rodgers.

The comparison with Drew Bledsoe seems misguided. Bledsoe played for a billion years, but was never particularly great. An extremely high-volume passer, but not productive / efficient. Led the league in attempts three times; the one year that he led in yardage, he also threw the most INTs. If you look at lost SBs, it's not like he was inches away; he lost his 35-21. Frankly, if you swap Warner for Bledsoe, neither those Rams nor those Cards would have made the SB.



I do agree that Warner was not the greatest QB who ever played. That HOF Monitor page I linked before has him "below average" – for a HOF QB. That's only gonna get worse when Manning & Brady get in, teachers pets who break the curve. Other "below-average HOF QBs" include Stabler, Namath, Sonny Jurg, Griese, Moon & Dawson.

If I had to kick a QB out of the Hall, it wouldn't be Warner. Jim Kelly & Troy Aikman shows as the "least qualified" HOF QBs on that monitor page. I'd kick out either one of those guys before Warner.

[LukeDaniel]

Yeah, that's the argument against him.

I think it's overstated. One aspect to the assessment of Warner is his style of play. Warner had the kind of pinpoint deep-ball that few QBs in the game have ever had. For pure deep-ball passing he ranks among the guys like Marino, Mahomes, etc. I think I agree with you that Marshall Faulk was probably the best player on those Greatest Show On Turf offenses; but I think Warner made the WRs. It was his arm that drove those offenses, not Bruce's and Holt's extraordinary talents (though they were very good).

Also, to me it matters that Warner was seconds away from being a 3-time SB winner. Adam Vinatieri's FG in the 2001 SB came with no time on the clock, and the Ben-to-Santonio-Holmes TD came with 35 secs left. Absent that second play, Warner would have led a 4th-quarter comeback win in the SB, to become the first QB to win it for two different teams. I don't know if the Hall voters consider such "almost / second-place / also-ran" things, but it matters to me when it's that close.

Warner is one of only 9 players to ever win MVP two times. Seven (incl Warner) of the nine are in the Hall; the other two are Tom Brady & Aaron Rodgers.

The comparison with Drew Bledsoe seems misguided. Bledsoe played for a billion years, but was never particularly great. An extremely high-volume passer, but not productive / efficient. Led the league in attempts three times; the one year that he led in yardage, he also threw the most INTs. If you look at lost SBs, it's not like he was inches away; he lost his 35-21. Frankly, if you swap Warner for Bledsoe, neither those Rams nor those Cards would have made the SB.



I do agree that Warner was not the greatest QB who ever played. That HOF Monitor page I linked before has him "below average" – for a HOF QB. That's only gonna get worse when Manning & Brady get in, teachers pets who break the curve. Other "below-average HOF QBs" include Stabler, Namath, Sonny Jurg, Griese, Moon & Dawson.

If I had to kick a QB out of the Hall, it wouldn't be Warner. Jim Kelly & Troy Aikman shows as the "least qualified" HOF QBs on that monitor page. I'd kick out either one of those guys before Warner.

You are putting way too much emphasis on Super Bowls IMO. Winning Super Bowls is a function team talent. Terry Bradshaw won 4. Was he anywhere near as good as Ken Anderson, who won zero?

Bledsoe was light years better than Warner IMO. Had he had the talent around him of Warner, he'd be sitting in Canton right now. He also played outdoors in cold weather cities for most of his career, which makes a significant statistical impact on a QB.

I don't have the time to find/post it right now, but you should look at Warner's stats in cold weather games. He was pretty bad. That's why he failed so miserably in New York. That, and he ONLY had Barber/Shockey/Toomer on his team (sarcasm).

I also wonder if Trent Green would now have a bust in Canton if not for that injury in 1999. A lot of QBs would have looked like HOFers playing in a dome/ desert with that offensive talent.

[PTORaven]

Jim Kelly & Troy Aikman shows as the "least qualified" HOF QBs on that monitor page. I'd kick out either one of those guys before Warner.

not Joe Namath? surprising

[cleaver]

Looking again at the 2018 draft we have

Lamar Jackson
Mark Andrews
Orlando Brown Jr
Hayden Hurst --> JK Dobbins
Kenny Young (+ 5th) --> Marcus Peters

..and now Bozeman and Elliott who are both coming into their own as starters. Even Anthony Averett still has a chance especially with the Tavon Young injury.

Could go down as one of the franchise defining drafts in NFL history.

That doesn’t make me optimistic about resigning Zeus, with the timing.

You can’t tell the history of the NFL without Namath, Aikman, and Warner. Stabler and Kelly, eh.