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  1. #25

    Re: The Official 2020 Lamar Jackson / Defending MVP Appreciation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JimZipCode View Post
    Yeah! The current situation is mind-blowing. What we're used to is the defense holding the opponent to 13 pts, and we figure Stover can give us 5 FGs for the win. This is a whole different world.
    Honestly if we don't win a superbowl with what we have, barring injury of course, it will be a massive failure. Just don't rest the team for three weeks ever again.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    “I'm the best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be.” - Bret Hart





  2. #26
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    Re: The Official 2020 Lamar Jackson / Defending MVP Appreciation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JimZipCode View Post
    Yeah! The current situation is mind-blowing. What we're used to is the defense holding the opponent to 13 pts, and we figure Stover can give us 5 FGs for the win. This is a whole different world.
    Jimmy, that Ravens 2000 Defense was a whole different universe. I've been around for a long time (as have many others), but never saw a "D" that was so dominant. I believe Brian Billick used to ask Marvin Lewis (our Defensive Coordinator) how many points the Ravens had to score to win each game. Marvin would usually say "10"

    Wikiperia : " The Ravens defense in 2000 is often named among the greatest NFL defenses of all time. Baltimore gave up only 970 rushing yards (60.6 per game) all year, an NFL record for a 16-game season, and 186 fewer yards than the next lowest team, Baltimore's Super Bowl XXXV opponent, the New York Giants. Baltimore gave up only five rushing touchdowns all season, and allowed a paltry 2.7 yards per rush, both league bests. Baltimore only allowed 165 points all season, also an NFL record for a 16-game season. Including the postseason, Baltimore's defense allowed only 167 points in 20 games to opposing offenses that year (8.35 per game). The Ravens allowed three other touchdowns that came from their opponents’ defense and special teams (two interception returns and one kickoff return). Furthermore, the Ravens recovered an astronomical 26 opponents fumbles during the season, double the total of the second-ranked team. Their defense also intercepted 23 passes to give them a total of 49 turnovers forced that season, most in the NFL. They did all of this despite their own offense's passing struggles and going five consecutive games without scoring a touchdown. "

    Didn't we just love the total smackdown we put on the Gints (34 - 7) in Super Bowl XXXV... Bc





  3. #27
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    Oct 2009
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    Re: The Official 2020 Lamar Jackson / Defending MVP Appreciation Thread

    the picture of LJ and the OL from this article is SO FREAKING COOL. i can't link the image directly for some reason but The Guardian isn't paywalled so anyone can read the article and see it for themselves. can't do a workaround either on my work computer other than attaching the pic to the post.

    Attachment 5375

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...-mahomes-lamar





  4. #28
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    Re: The Official 2020 Lamar Jackson / Defending MVP Appreciation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JimZipCode View Post
    This. And frankly, Lamar has caused me to reconsider what I think accuracy even is.

    Accuracy has always been my sine qua non for a QB prospect. Without accuracy, you don't have a passer. And before Lamar I was always comfortable with completion% as an indicator for accuracy. For Kyle Boller, the tape and the completion% agreed: the guy couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. Most QBs are like that. The stats and the tape tell basically the same story; or stories that you can reconcile with each other, even they might not agree on every last detail

    Lamar is really the first QB prospect that I've noticed, where the tape showed a guy with fantastic ball placement & touch, and at the same time the completion% was terrifyingly close to the line where he shouldn't even be drafted. It was weird. I've always been a stat guy: but here I trusted my eyes more than the numbers. It was an anomaly. Confusing.

    Ultimately stuff like Ben Solak's write-ups, and Matt Waldman's, and one or two others helped me understand what I was seeing.

    • Lamar had great ball placement and touch on the deep passes and the difficult passes, because he does have that.
    • The LVille offense had basically none of the easy throws that other college QBs get, to beef up their stats. So Lamar's stats had very little fat.
    • And Lamar had a real flaw, a tendency to get lazy or nonchalant on passes that seemed "easy" to him.

    The flaw showed up when he had to throw outside of the "cone" of his downfield-vision: reposition his body to throw to either sideline. Also Waldman pointed out that Lamar's footwork was better under center than from the shotgun: which makes sense, you have defined steps from under center, whereas from shotgun it's muddier.

    Once I saw (or read about) the thing with Lamar's stance-width and stride-width, everything fell into place and made sense. Lamar had very high-level accuracy and ball-placement and touch; but also his throwing mechanics from the waist down were, uh, unrefined. He was accurate but inconsistent.



    Was this a new thing for everyone else? It was for me. A real education. I'd always thought of "accuracy" as a thing that a passer always just has. And it's measured by completion%. Maybe you need to make an adjustment for drops (and throwaways etc). Maybe another kind of adjustment for a QB operating a dink-&-dunk offense with tons of easy short passes. But basically completion% tells most of the story.

    I'd never seen a player who was so poorly described by completion%, before Lamar. Always before, completion% told me a whole lot of what I wanted to know. Not in Lamar's case. This is a passer who was basically on-point ALWAYS when his feet were right; like, magically on-point, a tremendously accurate passer. Gifted. And a passer who was basically ALWAYS trash when his feet were wrong; like, terribly so. Dirting balls, sailing them over his receivers head, just every kind of comical bad throw you could think of.

    This was a QB who was great at the advanced hard stuff: reading the defense, ball placement deep downfield, pocket presence, etc. And terrible at the easy stuff: placing his feet correctly to throw a swing pass. It was weird. I had never seen it before.

    The lesson for me when looking at college QBs is – well. Honestly, I haven't yet figured out what the lesson is. At the very least there's, "accuracy is not just completion %." Also there's a bit of, "you have to look at some of the tape, not just the stats, when evaluating college QBs." I'm not there yet. I'm still processing all the "Lessons of Lamar".

    But I know now that accuracy is not what I thought it was.
    You mean filth's write ups hadn't sold you from the jump?

    Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk





  5. #29

    Re: The Official 2020 Lamar Jackson / Defending MVP Appreciation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PTORaven View Post
    the picture of LJ and the OL from this article is SO FREAKING COOL. i can't link the image directly for some reason but The Guardian isn't paywalled so anyone can read the article and see it for themselves. can't do a workaround either on my work computer other than attaching the pic to the post.

    Attachment 5375

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...-mahomes-lamar
    That's a thing of beauty. Poise in the pocket!
    "Did Ed Reed get the respect that he deserves? No he did not...Am I gonna get it? Probably won't. Hopefully he do. If I don't, then, hey, man, I'm alright with me." - Ed Reed





  6. #30
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    Re: The Official 2020 Lamar Jackson / Defending MVP Appreciation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by PTORaven View Post
    the picture of LJ and the OL from this article is SO FREAKING COOL. i can't link the image directly for some reason but The Guardian isn't paywalled so anyone can read the article and see it for themselves. can't do a workaround either on my work computer other than attaching the pic to the post.

    Attachment 5375

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...-mahomes-lamar
    Awesome picture!

    It’s a reminder of how chaotic a pocket can be.

    For those that didn’t watch him at Louisville that is what most of his drop backs looked like.

    In my layman’s observation it looked like Lamar had to learn how to throw from a narrow base because his OL was often in his lap. I think his short stride and short throwing “porch” were an adaptations to his pass protection.

    We should be thankful that Louisville OL was bad because a lot of his poise was developed by learning how to operate in that crucible.

    In Ken film study terminology Lamar didn’t have the luxury of ATS (ample time and space)





  7. #31

    Re: The Official 2020 Lamar Jackson / Defending MVP Appreciation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by JimZipCode View Post

    Was this a new thing for everyone else? It was for me. A real education. I'd always thought of "accuracy" as a thing that a passer always just has. ..... I'm not there yet. I'm still processing all the "Lessons of Lamar".
    It's not just you, Jim, it's almost everybody. All but a few experts confidently told us Baker, Darnold, Rosen and Allen would be better than Lamar. Have they even tried to learn the "Lessons of Lamar"? I havent seen much evidence. PFF were still trying to tell us to ignore the evidence of our lying eyes last season, that Wilson was the MVP.

    It's almost impossible to see college football here in Scotland but it was obvious, as soon as Lamar started for the Ravens, that his decision making and reading of defenses was much better than the other 2018 QBs. I wondered what the draft people had been watching.

    It wasn't as if there weren't signs that they were getting things wrong. Most reluctantly admitted Deshaun Watson was a 'gamer' but thought Trubisky was better. They were surprised Mahomes went as high as he did, too.

    Is race an element of this misjudgement I wonder? It seems like more black QBs have been catatrophically undervalued in the last decade - Wilson lasted until the third round. Are old school scouts unconsciously marking them down?





  8. #32

    Re: The Official 2020 Lamar Jackson / Defending MVP Appreciation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by QtR Nevermore View Post
    Is race an element of this misjudgement I wonder? It seems like more black QBs have been catatrophically undervalued in the last decade - Wilson lasted until the third round. Are old school scouts unconsciously marking them down?
    Other examples that just occured to me. 31 teams looking stupid for not signing cut price Cam Newton and no one wanting Kaepernick even though he was better than their QB2 (probably).





  9. #33

    Re: The Official 2020 Lamar Jackson / Defending MVP Appreciation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by usmccharles View Post
    Honestly if we don't win a superbowl with what we have, barring injury of course, it will be a massive failure. Just don't rest the team for three weeks ever again.

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    KC is still out there and a threat. We've got to avoid the injury bug too.





  10. #34

    Re: The Official 2020 Lamar Jackson / Defending MVP Appreciation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Culex View Post
    KC is still out there and a threat. We've got to avoid the injury bug too.
    Agreed. I'll never not think resting the team last year was a huge mistake

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
    “I'm the best there is, the best there was, and the best there ever will be.” - Bret Hart





  11. #35
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    Re: The Official 2020 Lamar Jackson / Defending MVP Appreciation Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by QtR Nevermore View Post
    Is race an element of this misjudgement I wonder? It seems like more black QBs have been catatrophically undervalued in the last decade - Wilson lasted until the third round. Are old school scouts unconsciously marking them down?
    I tend to think so. But it's complicated. Two major things:


    1. Scouting IS comparing kids to players you've seen before. There's just no way around that.

    Lamar's rushing ability is too big to see around. Every scout comped him to Michael Vick, because obviously. And once you see Vick, you have a guy who isn't a very good passer in your head. Even Bobby Petrino couldn't look past the running to see Lamar's passing ability. Lville's head recruiter called Lamar's HS coach and had him submit a new recruiting tape, "without all the running shit in the front".

    Wilson was too short. The most color-blind scout in the world would hesitate to push him as a high pick.
    (Probably Wilson's success was a huge factor in Kyler Murray going #1 overall 7 yrs later.)


    2. Black QBs have been over-drafted before, AND white QBs have been overlooked in the draft.

    Jamarcus Russell went #1 overall; colossal bust. Byron Leftwich went #7 overall, despite having no mobility and a huge slow windup & release that could not ever translate to the NFL.

    4x Pro Bowler Tony Romo went undrafted. Hall of Famer Kurt Warner went undrafted. Tom motherfucken Brady fell to the sixth round. It does happen that talented white QBs get missed.


    I lean toward thinking there was a racial element in the mis-evaluation of Lamar. But it's tough to tease out the "racial" strands from all the other strands: standard-issue incompetence, the overwhelming distortion of the Michael Vick comp, inherent difficulty in scouting the position, and so on.





  12. #36

    Re: The Official 2020 Lamar Jackson / Defending MVP Appreciation Thread

    Of course players of all races have been both under and over valued but it's noticable how so many good black QBs have been under-rated. Dak in the 4th, far below Paxton Lynch and Hackenberg, is another example.

    A lot of scouts will have been taught how to evaluate before black QBs were entirely trusted, which is a relatively recent development, so there's bound to be some lingering drag on their grades.





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