The Official 2020 Lamar Jackson / Defending MVP Appreciation Thread

[edromeo]

I am certain there is certain level of racial bias in scouting.

There is proven amount of racial discrepancy in drafting, opportunity and second chances for african american Qbs.
But that is a whole nother conversation.

"Scouting" as a whole is all over the place. And its even worse for QBs. Bill Walsh said: ~that very few people actually know how to properly scout QBs and fewer still know how to coach them.

When it comes to Lamar specifically for me it was an exercise in the power of sports/draft media groupthink led by a "proven/respected authority" in the form of Bill Polian. Once he made his decree having a conversation based on evidence about Lamar as prospect was like blowing against the wind. And believe me i tried.

Also, for Lamar specifically his running gifts were so blinding that people couldn't see past it.
In fact Bobby Petrino wrote Lamar off as an "athlete" when he first saw his tape. It wasn't until like JZC mentioned, when a his running highlights were removed from the beginning of the tape to the end of the tape did Petrino inquire about getting Lamar.

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[JimZipCode]

When it comes to Lamar specifically for me it was an exercise in the power of sports/draft media groupthink led by a "proven/respected authority" in the form of Bill Polian. Once he made his decree having a conversation based on evidence about Lamar as prospect was like blowing against the wind. And believe me i tried.

ExiledRavens 2 wks ago shared a vid of Chris Simms & Florio, where they talked about how Lamar not having a traditional agent played into the "draft narrative". The agents for Mayfield & Darnold & Allen (& Rosen, I guess) were seeding the ground. Lamar's camp either didn't know how to play that game or didn't care to.

https://forum.russellstreetreport.co...93#post1938193
(the Lamar talk starts @5:15 of the YouTube vid)

So that's part of the mis-evaluation of Lamar. The media mis-eval, anyway. There's really no excuse for the NFL types.

[Jsmoove]

This dude is really really good.

[edromeo]

ExiledRavens 2 wks ago shared a vid of Chris Simms & Florio, where they talked about how Lamar not having a traditional agent played into the "draft narrative". The agents for Mayfield & Darnold & Allen (& Rosen, I guess) were seeding the ground. Lamar's camp either didn't know how to play that game or didn't care to.

https://forum.russellstreetreport.co...93#post1938193

So that's part of the mis-evaluation of Lamar. The media mis-eval, anyway.

No doubt the lack of an agent played a role. I can’t remember if it was in this forum or not but I mentioned “agent influence” as a flaw in scouting. Agents should not sway scouting grades but they do. For example IMG preps their players with a wonderlic practice and coaching. I’m not a cop but I would bet dollars to donuts they are the source of wonderlic score “leaks”.

Lamar’s people definitely didn’t do a job OR didn’t realize they had to battle the “move to WR/can’t throw” narrative being crafted around Lamar.

But that narrative wouldn’t be effective if people weren’t predisposed to believe it....but I digress

[Jam31]

Of course players of all races have been both under and over valued but it's noticable how so many good black QBs have been under-rated. Dak in the 4th, far below Paxton Lynch and Hackenberg, is another example.

A lot of scouts will have been taught how to evaluate before black QBs were entirely trusted, which is a relatively recent development, so there's bound to be some lingering drag on their grades.

It's a keen observation QtR and I think Ed and Jim raise excellent and fair points. I'd add that the most damning evidence of the big question you ask would be Polian's insistence that Lamar is best suited at the pro level to play wide receiver. I say this because there's been a well-demonstrated bias against African American qb's since at least the 50's/60's where they were dismissed for their supposed lack of intelligence and it was widely accepted they could never be field generals and were specifically marginalized through relegation to the receiver role.

Shaffer from the Sun had a great piece last week about Eldridge Dickey and some of the struggles he had in the profession that just couldn't comprehend such an athlete playing QB.

https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/...i4y-story.html

As Lamar would tell you himself, he's a beneficiary of those pioneers before him who succeeded in some rare instances but the majority were stifled and consigned to wide receiver because that was viewed more "naturally."

So when Polian raised that specter, that definitely angered most folks who had seen Lamar play the QB position at Louisville, and justifiably so imho

[edromeo]

ExiledRavens 2 wks ago shared a vid of Chris Simms & Florio, where they talked about how Lamar not having a traditional agent played into the "draft narrative". The agents for Mayfield & Darnold & Allen (& Rosen, I guess) were seeding the ground. Lamar's camp either didn't know how to play that game or didn't care to.

https://forum.russellstreetreport.co...93#post1938193
(the Lamar talk starts @5:15 of the YouTube vid)

So that's part of the mis-evaluation of Lamar. The media mis-eval, anyway. There's really no excuse for the NFL types.

...edromeo 01-03-2020, 06:29 AM

John-Reglarperson-this isn’t a reply to your post above


Truth of the matter is that by and large people do not acknowledge that they were wrong.

And I get it. Imho most casual fans don’t breakdown enough quantity of film to make accurate assessments about prospects. (Most média draft “experts” don’t either because they simply trying to cover too wide a swath. They can’t scout every prospect.). Therefore fans/some media rely on the “general impressions” which are formed by taking a cursory look at prospect in a very limited sample size and forming a hasty opinion based on the ‘the ole eye test’. They also rely on what they hear about a prospect (more then most realize I bet). They hear Lamar is “running QB” and they take a look and are blinded by amazing running ability. Welp that settled it. Lamar is a “Running QB”; nothing else to see. Heck, Bobby Petrine his college coach ignored Lamar’s tape when it showed his running highlights first. It wasn’t until another coach removed his runs and showed his passing that Petrino asked the scout if they could sign the kid (despite the fact that Petrino already saw and ignored his tape earlier). I don’t fault fans for being blinded by his running and accepting a false narrative.

Another factor that affected Lamar’s narrative was the lack of an agent. A big sports agency can do a lot for a prospect. The biggest thing they do is shape perception. They have NFL connections and draft media connections. Simply put agents can talk up prospects and bad mouth other prospects to important people. Lamar’s “team” did literally nothing to shape his narrative and in fact may have hurt his perception by having a woman represent him in a male dominated sport.

No one likes to admit that they were wrong. And few in the media admit that they were taken in by a false narrative. They can’t admit that because it exposes that they didn’t do their jobs and participate in groupthink. They say things that amount to: no one could have seen “this” level of success therefore no one was right in their assessment of Lamar -and/or Lamar made unpredictably impossible improvement in accuracy because these same draft experts swore up and down that you can’t improve accuracy.

And here we are. Lamar is killing it.
They were all dead ass wrong.

The information about Lamar as prospect is posted and still ignored.

[ExiledRaven]

What’s always impressed me with the Ravens is their work to find people with good traits and then let them do their job. Both front office/coaching/etc. and players. Of course, the Owner’s business depended on being able to do just that!

It does take a certain level of confidence to trust your gut and knowledge and your team versus listening to the noise. All that said, listen to the noise too much and you undercut the ability of your team to apply the expertise you paid for.

What’s most impressive about Lamar? Not only is he incredibly gifted, he loves ball and works his tail off. And it seems like to matter what players come to the Ravens you haven some baseline ability there’s great... but that love of ball and effort?

Really excited the Ravens got Lamar. We all just have to hope the ravens aren’t the colts the chief patriots.

Edit: the constant doubterism in the media is boring. It also gets clicks and sells ads. The opinions are locked in until the Ravens smash the chiefs win a Super Bowl and then smash the chiefs again on the way. And that still won’t change all of the talking heads... there will be an excuse.

[Paintballguy]

It's a keen observation QtR and I think Ed and Jim raise excellent and fair points. I'd add that the most damning evidence of the big question you ask would be Polian's insistence that Lamar is best suited at the pro level to play wide receiver. I say this because there's been a well-demonstrated bias against African American qb's since at least the 50's/60's where they were dismissed for their supposed lack of intelligence and it was widely accepted they could never be field generals and were specifically marginalized through relegation to the receiver role.

Shaffer from the Sun had a great piece last week about Eldridge Dickey and some of the struggles he had in the profession that just couldn't comprehend such an athlete playing QB.

https://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/...i4y-story.html

As Lamar would tell you himself, he's a beneficiary of those pioneers before him who succeeded in some rare instances but the majority were stifled and consigned to wide receiver because that was viewed more "naturally."

So when Polian raised that specter, that definitely angered most folks who had seen Lamar play the QB position at Louisville, and justifiably so imho

It really pissed me off how quickly people typecasted Lamar as a guy who would just scramble and couldn't be a pocket passer or go through progressions. I was so high on Lamar pre-draft because of people who actually watched him play at Louisville and did the analysis of how he ran a pro style offense under Petrino which asked him to go through progressions and make hard throws.

Then for Polian to say he should play WR was just ridiculous. Polian even called him short too.

[Laxdad24]

Still believe it’s “wrong “ to put Mahomes at number 1? Lamar’s a great kid , and he’s young and always improving but he’s not in Patrick’s class yet as far as QB goes.


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[edromeo]

Still believe it’s “wrong “ to put Mahomes at number 1? Lamar’s a great kid , and he’s young and always improving but he’s not in Patrick’s class yet as far as QB goes.


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Don’t think of Lamar in this game, literally one of his skill position players and play callers worst games....and therefore one of his worst games, as representative of the comparison between he and Mahomes.

Think of Lamar in THEIR offense.
Throwing to W I D E. open receivers all game.

[Ravenswintitle]

[JimZipCode]

Still believe it’s “wrong “ to put Mahomes at number 1? Lamar’s a great kid , and he’s young and always improving but he’s not in Patrick’s class yet as far as QB goes.

After Monday night, I have to back way off that. Mahomes was the perfect pass-throwing TD-making machine; and Lamar seemed to have taken a huge step backwards. If they each keep playing like that, it's not competitive; Lamar's not anywhere close.

That game shocked me, by the way. Not that the Chiefs put up a zillion points; that's fairly routine. But our offense's showing against their defense, that shook me.