Zeitgeist Movie

**Greg** · 07-06-2020, 02:15 PM

LOL, now a great list of historians from that time that don't document Jesus. Nice job leaving out Josephus, the Jewish historian who worked for the Romans..

Oh, and one other guy. Luke, the gentile, who wrote the Gospel with his name and Acts. By all accounts Luke was a first rate historical writer and not one bit of either work has an error and of the dozens and dozens of things that can be verified in his writings all are spot on. So, yeah, some very good historical writers mention Jesus.

Selective evidence, another logical fallacy.

Oh, they did hit one point. Among Josephus' writings there was a likely forgery entered/added but it was in addition to a mention of Jesus and not the reference to Jesus, which dates back to the original.

**Greg** · 07-06-2020, 02:20 PM

Now they swung for the fences and hit the GRAND SLAM of historical stupidity. Jesus likely dd not exist.

Nobody with any stature in historical studies would claim such a monumentally stupid thing.

**NCRAVEN** · 07-06-2020, 02:37 PM

Originally Posted by Greg

The December 25th one is my favorite.

Also, Easter is related to the vernal equinox but the Crucifixion and Resurrection are tied to The Exodus and Passover. That we call it Easter is a rip off from pagan religions, but the timing is not. It is tied to Passover as Jesus was crucified on Passover and for good reason (sacrifice for sins, death passing over those covered in the blood). Given His birth in early fall it is likely He was born on either Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement (what I would surmise) or Rosh Hashana (the Jewish New Year). If they would have tied his birth to the Jewish New Year and rebirth it would have made more sense but wouldn't have worked with their whole sun/Son strategy.

I heard that Jews believe if you led a perfect life you’d die on the day you were born. Since they think that’s at conception and not physical birth, they think conception would have been around 12/25.

**Greg** · 07-06-2020, 02:38 PM

Okay, 33 minutes in and I am stopping for a while. Another 1:20 of this is not in the cards right now. I will come back to it.

But let's approach this from the other side given the "Jesus likely did not exist" claim.

There are thousands and thousands of NT scholars/historians writing out there and a very large number are most decidedly not Christian (see the Jesus Seminar for example). There may be one or two that claim Jesus did not exist but none that I have ever read or know about. But what do they say, non-believers included.

Over 90% agree that Jesus was crucified on a cross. I guess He had to exist for that to be a claim.

Over 90% believe Jesus was buried in a tomb owned by Joseph of Arimethea. This is important because the burial location was definitely known.

Over 90% believe Jesus tomb was found empty on a Sunday morning by a group of His women followers. Maybe Jesus was an early feminist. But given the testimony of a woman held little to no weight at that time it is unlikely anybody would use women in a made up story.

Over 90% agree that Jesus was seen alive after that. Yes, over 90% agree on that but with varying explanations (mass hallucinations for example, though mass hallucinations of the same thing don't happen).

Over 90% agree that His followers had a MASSIVE change in their religious views AFTER that Sunday. For example, Jewish belief held that a resurrection would only occur at the end of time, not one by itself.

These belief statements were put together by Dr. Gary Habermas. He wanted to know what the scholarship of NT historians thought. But he didn't do a survey in the traditional manner to avoid two issues. One, he couldn't expect answers from all prominent scholars in the field as many just wouldn't respond. Two, he didn't want to bias answers with how the questions were phrased. Instead he went through over two decades of writings in scholarly publications and used what they actually wrote on the various topics so bias was eliminated and anybody writing in respected publications would be included. Thousand and thousands of articles and the above is what is concluded by the scholars, including non-Christians.

Nobody claims that about Horus.

**Greg** · 07-06-2020, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by NCRAVEN

I heard that Jews believe if you led a perfect life you’d die on the day you were born. Since they think that’s at conception and not physical birth, they think conception would have been around 12/25.

Maybe, but he was most definitely crucified at Passover which is in the spring.

**Ortizer** · 07-06-2020, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

Divine birth, miracles, resurrection...

There are lots of religions and periods of civilization that have those types of stories.

They’re not crazy ideas, in a way...but it does make me wonder about ancient civilization travel, engagement, etc.

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Honestly, the amount of similarities makes me wonder about the tower is babel in genesis. Especially seeing as it basically is suggesting one world culture prior to that. You see a lot of similarities in the oldest religious tales.

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**Greg** · 07-06-2020, 11:00 PM

Originally Posted by Ortizer

Honestly, the amount of similarities makes me wonder about the tower is babel in genesis. Especially seeing as it basically is suggesting one world culture prior to that. You see a lot of similarities in the oldest religious tales.

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Seriously? The similarities are made up. And at some point, regardless of how you think we got here, there was an initial culture that was shared by some small number of humans.

**Ortizer** · 07-07-2020, 12:37 AM

Originally Posted by Greg

Seriously? The similarities are made up. And at some point, regardless of how you think we got here, there was an initial culture that was shared by some small number of humans.

You don't think it's odd that every religion seems to have the flood? Seems to be if they were all aware of God from the start (since obviously they weren't all worshiping him at that point), that it would lend credence to the tower is babel that they share events that occurred prior to it.

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**Culex** · 07-07-2020, 05:39 AM

Originally Posted by Ortizer

You don't think it's odd that every religion seems to have the flood? Seems to be if they were all aware of God from the start (since obviously they weren't all worshiping him at that point), that it would lend credence to the tower is babel that they share events that occurred prior to it.

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Perhaps because there really was a global food? Therefore documented by every religion/culture.

**wickedsolo** · 07-07-2020, 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by Culex

Perhaps because there really was a global food? Therefore documented by every religion/culture.

Younger Dryas

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**owknows** · 07-07-2020, 07:27 AM

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

Younger Dryas

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I am slowly becoming swayed by the mounting evidence that the Younger Dryas was precipitated by an impact event on the Laurentide Ice sheet. (which probably facilitated a lot of the flood mythos)

**wickedsolo** · 07-07-2020, 07:47 AM

Originally Posted by owknows

I am slowly becoming swayed by the mounting evidence that the Younger Dryas was precipitated by an impact event on the Laurentide Ice sheet. (which probably facilitated a lot of the flood mythos)

I definitely agree. I also think there is enough evidence suggesting that there were some pretty advanced civilizations prior to that as well.