A closer look at Miles Boykin

[Shas]

Hmm. I think it's a tad early to draw that conclusion re: Duvernay

He has 10 catches on 12 targets in his career.

Boykin has 11 on 19 targets this year and 42 targets in his career.

Not much to go on for either, really, but with Boykin some of us see some real inconsistency and particular issues when asked to do perform certain assignments.

With Duvernay, if you were to post his 12 targets can you really make the case he has issues he can't overcome?

I'm not sure how you are arriving at this conclusion. The guy led college football in total catches, to boot.

I'm not seeing what you are seeing to be pessimistic.

[JimZipCode]

Hmm. I think it's a tad early to draw that conclusion re: Duvernay
...
With Duvernay, if you were to post his 12 targets can you really make the case he has issues he can't overcome?

All I said was what he's SHOWN so far. He hasn't shown strengths in any of the specific things that you said were Boykin's weaknesses.

I'm not sure how you are arriving at this conclusion. The guy led college football in total catches, to boot.

I'm not seeing what you are seeing to be pessimistic.

Whoa, back up. I got no pessimism about Duvernay's ability to be a good WR. On the contrary, I like what I've seen from him so far. He looks like a player.

But I don't see him playing the X position, running routes against press etc. That's not what he did in college, and he hasn't shown any of it in the NFL.

I don't see Duvernay having any "issues he can't overcome" -- no more than I see Boykin having any. It's just, of the three main WR roles, the X (which Boykin plays) is the one Duvernay is least suited to. Maybe on an occasional snap or against specific matchups; but not game after game.

[edromeo]

Noticing he only focused on plays where Boykin was targeted

Oh, you're still on a quest rallying against actually looking at "non-targets" as part of complete player assessment. Cool.
Doing and down and dirty look at 19 targets is much more tenable on youtube then a full deep dive full player evaluation.

But, I would bet dollars to donuts that Sip2Tally would agree that the idea that there is nothing to be learned by watching both a receivers targets and non-targets is either a disingenuous or a display of genuine unfamiliarity with player evaluation.

Taking a closer a look, that style of film breakdown attempted in this thread, isn't for everyone. Breaking down targets and some of the available non-targets is tedious time consuming true scouting style work.

This breakdown totally jives with my stated impressions of Boykin.

Hmmnn that's an odd way to interpret Sip2Tally's opinion on Boykin. It seemed pretty clear that he has the opposite of your stance.

He does some good things, but also a not good thing for every good thing he does,

Any simple +/- standard play grading system would objectively show that Miles does more "good things then not goods things"

More specifically, he performs well when running "tight-end type routes." He is a nice, big target who can run hitch routes and slide into open spots. Most of his catches come in the middle of the field when his numbers are turned back to the QB or he is running laterally, left to right, with the QB. He is good at running away from coverage on slants, using his long strides to get from point a to b easily.

Slants, Deep outs, Comebacks and sideline vertical routes are not TE routes.

Where he struggles is showing better technique in 1:1 situations to get separation and beat man coverage.

Your supposition in the quote about isn't supported by the film or the numbers though.
The film is posted here and in the vid if you choose to discuss it.

And the numbers...you know there are actually stats that record the amount of separation receivers gain? Next Gen keeps one that is public:

Average Separation (SEP)
The distance (in yards) measured between a WR/TE and the nearest defender at the time of catch or incompletion.
https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/stats/r...age-separation

Miles Boykin SEP is 2.9 which is second on the team; only .2 behind Hollywood Brown @ 3.1

[edromeo]

...

Duverney literally has not shown anything in the areas where you said Boykin has limitations.

I mean, I like what I've seen from Duvernay so far. He seems like a real asset; there's some excitement to his game. But I don't think he can play the role they've been asking Boykin to play. For one thing he doesn't have the size; and his route-running in college had its own issues.

I don't think size is an issue/factor in Duvernay playing the X or playing in Mile's role.

Right now we haven't seen Duvernay called upon to run the same routes that Miles runs.
Iirc Duverany's targets have largley been screens or quick "1-read slants" that are nothing more then a glorified screen considering the other receivers out in the pattern aren't live they're hunting for work to block someone, he's got 1 target on drag route scramble drill and 1 other on quick slant.

He's hasn't run that many routes overall.

But he's run some verticals and gained separation but Lamar went somewhere else with the ball.
Which puts him in the same boat with Miles in respect to being open on vertical routes without receiving a target which goes back to one of my overall gripes about the current state of the Ravens passing game: lack of deep attempts.

Standard west coast passing game concepts use the short/intermediate passing game to set-up explosive plays and if CBs are sitting on Boykin's sideline stops route or his slants then you'd expect Gregg to call an out and up or slant and go sooner or later.

One of the open non-targets was one of better routes from a college the slot corner route. One route to compare separation Miles vs Duv is on the sideline comeaback. But anyhow here are some time stamps of Duv from a previous post if you want to see/watch the plays i mentioned.

DuV-
3Q - 14:13 Deep Over
3Q 9:02 Corner

other plays that stood out in the passing game:
1st play 3Q Miles open on slant (L) Hollywood gets the target (R) drops it -but penalty nullified the play anyway
4Q 3:28 (no one open) but DuV gets shutdown on a comeback {stood out to me because these are Miles bread and butter}

Right now there isn't a lot of apples to apples route comparison for Duvernay vs Miles yet.

[seraph]

Noticing he only focused on plays where Boykin was targeted :)



Where he struggles is showing better technique in 1:1 situations to get separation and beat man coverage. They haven't been able to take advantage of what should be the advantage of his incredible 43" vertical jumping ability to high point the ball on go routes or out routes at the boundary. If he can figure out how to rut these routes when he must beat the CB while moving away from the QB when the ball is thrown, they the Ravens really have something in him.

If not, they may have another tight end.

From the examples from the videos you literally see him get initial separation on vertical route.

The real problem is his competitiveness in hand combat with defenders. He kind of sucks at that. When Boykin knows the ball is going to him he can run his route under control. Otherwise it looks to me like he rushes is releases and fails to convince corners on his plan. Would also help if he could get a catchable ball on vertical routes just once.

Also people who want Boykin at tight end need to chill on that. You have no idea how he would do if he had to block EDGE defenders.

[Waywatcher]

Also people who want Boykin at tight end need to chill on that. You have no idea how he would do if he had to block EDGE defenders.

I doubt sincerely that, were Boykin to be converted to TE, he'd ever play in-line or, really, as anything other than a move/downfield blocking piece.

[SouthSide]

Does Darren Waller play inline?

Serious question as I don't pay attention to Raiders games. I have been wondering to myserlif Dez could play TE in a similar manner as Waller.

[edromeo]

The real problem is his competitiveness in hand combat with defenders. He kind of sucks at that. When Boykin knows the ball is going to him he can run his route under control. Otherwise it looks to me like he rushes is releases and fails to convince corners on his plan. Would also help if he could get a catchable ball on vertical routes just once.

Also people who want Boykin at tight end need to chill on that. You have no idea how he would do if he had to block EDGE defenders.

Agree with the bolded critique above. I mentioned earlier in the thread something along those lines bolded below:

Ty, likewise. Agreed on the possible confidence role, well said.

I also think Boykin needs to sharpen up his route running:
o mastering his keys/reads on drag routes

o vertical game
-stacking the DB on vertical routes after he wins at the LOS
-stacking and bumping to gain separation near the catch point
-being more aggressive and being 1st to attack and high point the ball

o accelerating out of his breaks
o being aggressive to work his himself to the ball and get in the best catch positions
...

When Boykin wins vertically he doesn’t know hot to ‘pin’ the CB behind him the way the better downfield receivers do. He doesn’t know how to “create bump separation”

And I agree 100% that it would be nice to see Boykin get a catchable vertical target. It would really help to see/know what he can do with them.

[JimZipCode]

Would also help if Boykin could get a catchable ball on vertical routes just once.

And I agree 100% that it would be nice to see Boykin get a catchable vertical target.

BoYkIn hAs NoT eArNeD aNy VeRtIcAl TaRgEtS.

[Mmcclend]

Tick tick tick. Time is running out.

[John Reglarperson]

BoYkIn hAs NoT eArNeD aNy VeRtIcAl TaRgEtS.

That really isn't how it should work.

Boykin is someone who you would want out there to catch long passes. He's the WR you want to catch the jump ball, the 50/50 ball, the contested catch, the ball that's thrown short.

Brown is short. That's perfectly fine when the short receiver is also very fast. And Brown is very fast, so that's ok. Brown can use that speed and quickness to get open, and when he gets open, he can catch a long pass. He's also good at tracking the ball, getting to where the ball is coming down, adjusting his speed, perhaps accelerating into the ball, giving him distance between him and the db for yac. Things like that.

Problems do arise when things like "the ball isn't thrown far enough" happen. The WR and the DB, slow down or stop and then come back for the ball and jump. Things like that. In situations like that Brown is not the best. RGIII threw a catchable pass to Brown, it wasn't a well thrown pass, it was short, but it was catchable, and it was intercepted. Someone like Boykin is going to do better in situations like that. He's not quite as fast as Brown, he probably doesn't have the polished WR tricks that Brown has, but he's 99.9% sparq. Top 0.1% He's tall and he can jump. If I was the QB (being a bad QB) I'd want to throw to Boykin, because no way am I hitting a very fast Brown in stride, but I could try to throw the ball out of bounds, 10 feet off the ground as it goes out of bounds, and maybe Boykin can catch that. And if it doesn't get that far, Boykin can high point it in bounds and fight off the db.

Boykin has 0 drops so far this year. The completion percentage to Boykin isn't very high, but it apparently not due to drops by Boykin.

[edromeo]

That really isn't how it should work.

Boykin is someone who you would want out there to catch long passes. He's the WR you want to catch the jump ball, the 50/50 ball, the contested catch, the ball that's thrown short.

Brown is short. That's perfectly fine when the short receiver is also very fast. And Brown is very fast, so that's ok. Brown can use that speed and quickness to get open, and when he gets open, he can catch a long pass. He's also good at tracking the ball, getting to where the ball is coming down, adjusting his speed, perhaps accelerating into the ball, giving him distance between him and the db for yac. Things like that.

Problems do arise when things like "the ball isn't thrown far enough" happen. The WR and the DB, slow down or stop and then come back for the ball and jump. Things like that. In situations like that Brown is not the best. RGIII threw a catchable pass to Brown, it wasn't a well thrown pass, it was short, but it was catchable, and it was intercepted. Someone like Boykin is going to do better in situations like that. He's not quite as fast as Brown, he probably doesn't have the polished WR tricks that Brown has, but he's 99.9% sparq. Top 0.1% He's tall and he can jump. If I was the QB (being a bad QB) I'd want to throw to Boykin, because no way am I hitting a very fast Brown in stride, but I could try to throw the ball out of bounds, 10 feet off the ground as it goes out of bounds, and maybe Boykin can catch that. And if it doesn't get that far, Boykin can high point it in bounds and fight off the db.

Boykin has 0 drops so far this year. The completion percentage to Boykin isn't very high, but it apparently not due to drops by Boykin.

Man, i'm impressed. It's been awhile seen i've read an off-message post from you.

But, yeah specific to Miles Boykin deep attempts I would say that the film shows that his vertical targets haven't that failed due to his error.
All his deep targets (and some open non-targets) are posted as gifs somewhere in this thread.
But, i've been made aware that....well.......people quite clearly aren't interested in looking at them.

Overall, imho Miles Boykin and Lamar's lack of chemistry is a symptom of the 2 overall "problems" with the passing game: low volume overall/specifically deep which is a by product of lack of intention/lack of aggressive mindset basically the offense doesn't have an attack mindset in the passing game.

Gotta run to be continued.....