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  1. #13
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    Re: A closer look at Miles Boykin

    #2: Game2 vsCards, Q3 15:00, 1st-&-10 RAV 25
    Lamar incomplete deep left intended for Boykin

    Does Boykin slow down during this route? Looks like he has won early, around the 30 yard line; and then by around the 45 the corner is back in front of him. Looks like an overthrow from the TV angle, but maybe due to Boykin ceding the route to the defender.
    Route: Go
    Win/Separation: Won at the Line (+) vs Press but did not separate(-). Failed stack the CB (-) and gave up position downfield (-)
    Ball Location: Lead Outside toward the sideline away from the midfield S
    Catch: Incompletion
    Play Result/Design: Go route vs Cover-1 Press-man
    From a play design standpoint there wasn't another vertical route in the play concept to occupy the FS and therefore was able to cap/cutoff the vertical route.

    Good that he won at the line vs press but he didn't do anything with it.
    You would like to see him stack/pin the CB behind once they are in phase and either turn on the jets or control the speed and then bump-separate when the ball is in the air
    "Those corners...and those safeties are going to be one-on-one... and we got to make them pay for it," Harbs

    "I think hed be[Lamar] the greatest player in the history of the game, Young said





  2. #14
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    Re: A closer look at Miles Boykin

    #3: Game2 vsCards Q3 2:09 2nd-&-7 Cards 22
    Lamar incomplete short middle intended for Boykin

    This looked like a drop from the main view, but seeing this angle changes my mind. Looks to me like Boykin slows as he crosses Lamar's face, maybe trying to keep the window open? And Lamar throws it to where Boykin woulda/shoulda been if he had kept at full speed. Not a drop, but a route-running error.


    Route: Drag
    Win/Separation: N/a. (-) Route running mistake.
    Ball Location: Horizontal lead on target
    Catch: Drop
    Play Result/Design: Boykin made a route running mistake here. When you see green grass in front of you on a drag you keep running.
    "Those corners...and those safeties are going to be one-on-one... and we got to make them pay for it," Harbs

    "I think hed be[Lamar] the greatest player in the history of the game, Young said





  3. #15
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    Re: A closer look at Miles Boykin



    Route: 15 yard comeback
    Win/Separation: N/a. Separation (+)
    Ball Location: Sideline comeback on target. Beautiful pass for squirtgun arm ;) that's what easy velocity looks like
    Catch: Yes
    Play Result/Design: Good timing form both Lamar and Boykin.
    Only critique would like to see Boykin comeback to the ball a little more and stay on his feet going out of bounds.
    No need to go to the ground there, my old coach would say don't make a meal of it.
    "Those corners...and those safeties are going to be one-on-one... and we got to make them pay for it," Harbs

    "I think hed be[Lamar] the greatest player in the history of the game, Young said





  4. #16
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    Re: A closer look at Miles Boykin

    Quote Originally Posted by edromeo View Post
    Route: Drag
    Win/Separation: N/a. (-) Route running mistake.
    Ball Location: Horizontal lead on target
    Catch: Drop
    Why "drop" instead of "incompletion"?

    This feels like you're double-counting the route-running mistake. If he hadn't slowed, he would have been in position to drop or catch it. Because he slowed, he wasn't in position to make the catch or the drop.

    Does Boykin earn the drop from you here, because he's able to graze the ball with a fingertip?





  5. #17
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    Re: A closer look at Miles Boykin

    Quote Originally Posted by JimZipCode View Post
    Why "drop" instead of "incompletion"?

    This feels like you're double-counting the route-running mistake. If he hadn't slowed, he would have been in position to drop or catch it. Because he slowed, he wasn't in position to make the catch or the drop.

    Does Boykin earn the drop from you here, because he's able to graze the ball with a fingertip?
    Because he should have caught it.

    For me, they are separate but related events. You can run a bad a route and still make the catch. Or you can run a good route and drop the ball. But, if you run a bad route which continues to a drop, you still dropped the ball.

    I hope we are going talk about more then drops though
    "Those corners...and those safeties are going to be one-on-one... and we got to make them pay for it," Harbs

    "I think hed be[Lamar] the greatest player in the history of the game, Young said





  6. #18
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    Re: A closer look at Miles Boykin

    Quote Originally Posted by edromeo View Post
    Goddam, you are getting BEAUTIFUL resolution on this gif. Mine look like shit by comparison. Blurry.

    Can you drop me a line to let me know how you are doing this? Technical details, I mean. Half of mine I can't see the detail I'd like to see to make an evaluation.



    Quote Originally Posted by edromeo View Post
    Only critique would like to see Boykin comeback to the ball a little more and stay on his feet going out of bounds.
    No need to go to the ground there, my old coach would say don't make a meal of it.
    I get what you're saying. I'm about 80% in agreement with you. My hesitation on the critique is that the ball is a little bit of a tweener. Neither low nor high. Boykin goes to the ground so that he can use perfect active-hands technique on the catch. I like the emphasis on making the catch first, everything else second.

    I guess what you're saying is, if Boykin was coming back more decisively upfield, vertically rather than angled toward the sideline, then he makes that catch standing up? Yeah ok, I can see that.





  7. #19
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    Re: A closer look at Miles Boykin

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    He REALLY needs work on that. He's always going to be a bit limited as hes such a long strider with limited suddeness, but a lot of those routes were being run for him by defenders...that tells me that he's tipping off his routes. Gotta find a way to make contested catches better if he's going to struggle with separation. Hopefully, we'll see the improvement because we need him.
    I feel like most of his issues are tied to this.
    "Find #20 on every play"





  8. #20
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    Re: A closer look at Miles Boykin

    Quote Originally Posted by edromeo View Post
    Because he should have caught it.

    For me, they are separate but related events. You can run a bad a route and still make the catch. Or you can run a good route and drop the ball. But, if you run a bad route which continues to a drop, you still dropped the ball.
    Agree that it is possible for a receiver to fail in two separate phases on the same play. Disagree that it appened here. Boykin was out of position for the catch because of the route-running fail. Since Boykin was in the wrong place, this ball was just out of his reach. That's a repercussion of the single error. Lamar threw a nice, perfectly catchable ball that Boykin wasn't there for.

    We had this same argument about a college player last year. It's a methodology argument. I think that just because Boykin was able to graze this ball with a fingertip, does not mean he could reach it for a catch. Maybe Randy Moss could, having stopped in that position, but that can't be the standard.

    Drops = hands to me, and honestly I think for the whole eval world. Boykin didn't exhibit poor hands here, or poor catch technique, or poor tracking of the ball. He just couldn't reach it, because of his route-running mistake a couple steps earlier. It's one mistake, not two.


    Quote Originally Posted by edromeo View Post
    I hope we are going talk about more then drops though
    Guess we'll see, won't we?



    I think there were two plays that I had as not a drop, that I half-expected disagreement on. Maybe three. This one, and a play vs the Titans where the ball was tipped at the line. Maybe another on the two-point attempt from that game.





  9. #21
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    Re: A closer look at Miles Boykin

    Quote Originally Posted by JimZipCode View Post
    Goddam, you are getting BEAUTIFUL resolution on this gif. Mine look like shit by comparison. Blurry.
    Can you drop me a line to let me know how you are doing this? Technical details, I mean. Half of mine I can't see the detail I'd like to see to make an evaluation.
    The clear images are from youtube. I use gif.com. Find or upload the youtube vid you want then type "gif" in front of the youtube page url for example:

    this youtube vid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=djYvDhLFhGc
    becomes: https://www.gifyoutube.com/watch?v=djYvDhLFhGc

    Then away you go edit the 10s or less clip you want.


    Quote Originally Posted by JimZipCode View Post
    I get what you're saying. I'm about 80% in agreement with you. My hesitation on the critique is that the ball is a little bit of a tweener. Neither low nor high. Boykin goes to the ground so that he can use perfect active-hands technique on the catch. I like the emphasis on making the catch first, everything else second.

    I guess what you're saying is, if Boykin was coming back more decisively upfield, vertically rather than angled toward the sideline, then he makes that catch standing up? Yeah ok, I can see that.
    Yes, it a nuance that good receivers have. They aggressively comeback to the ball. It a small ding, but whether or not a receiver is aggressive out of the break could be the difference in maintaining separation and keeping the DB from recovering to make a play on the ball.

    To me focusing on the drop soo much that he goes to ground to secure the catch might be a sign of lack of confidence or worry over making the catch.
    Last edited by edromeo; 06-19-2020 at 04:38 PM.
    "Those corners...and those safeties are going to be one-on-one... and we got to make them pay for it," Harbs

    "I think hed be[Lamar] the greatest player in the history of the game, Young said





  10. #22
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    Re: A closer look at Miles Boykin

    Quote Originally Posted by JimZipCode View Post
    Agree that it is possible for a receiver to fail in two separate phases on the same play. Disagree that it appened here. Boykin was out of position for the catch because of the route-running fail. Since Boykin was in the wrong place, this ball was just out of his reach. That's a repercussion of the single error. Lamar threw a nice, perfectly catchable ball that Boykin wasn't there for.

    We had this same argument about a college player last year. It's a methodology argument. I think that just because Boykin was able to graze this ball with a fingertip, does not mean he could reach it for a catch. Maybe Randy Moss could, having stopped in that position, but that can't be the standard.

    Drops = hands to me, and honestly I think for the whole eval world. Boykin didn't exhibit poor hands here, or poor catch technique, or poor tracking of the ball. He just couldn't reach it, because of his route-running mistake a couple steps earlier. It's one mistake, not two.
    To each their own. I try to follow the standard scouting community +/- grading system broken down by categories.

    You don't give Boykin a drop; different coaches/people often see parts or the whole of plays different.

    You know where I stand on this when we went over, in detail, Hakeem Butler's film no need to re-hash it here. For me its a drop.

    That situation has to result in a completion 100% of the time.
    That play stuck out in my mind as having major teachable/coachable moments.
    The WR has to make the right read there and the end result cannot be an incompletion.
    Last edited by edromeo; 06-19-2020 at 04:36 PM.
    "Those corners...and those safeties are going to be one-on-one... and we got to make them pay for it," Harbs

    "I think hed be[Lamar] the greatest player in the history of the game, Young said





  11. #23
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    Re: A closer look at Miles Boykin



    Route: Go
    Win/Separation: Won at the Line (+) vs gains about a yard of vertical separation

    Ball Location: Vertical sideline lead away from CB; on target.
    Catch: Drop. Want to see him aggressively go up to make a catch here
    Play Result/Design: 4-Verts w/ checkdown vs Zone w/ Boykin 1-on-1 man

    Opportunity to make a big time play here...did everything right but gonna finish with a catch....gotta find a way to make this play.
    "Those corners...and those safeties are going to be one-on-one... and we got to make them pay for it," Harbs

    "I think hed be[Lamar] the greatest player in the history of the game, Young said





  12. #24
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    Re: A closer look at Miles Boykin

    #6: Game4 vsBrowns Q2 2:00 2 9 CLE 9
    Lamar complete short middle to Boykin for 9 yards touchdown

    But it sure looks weird on a play like this. Boykin has found a dead spot in the zone and settles into it. But to Lamar there is no such thing as a player standing still on a football field, and his throw pulls Boykin away from the backside defender. I can imagine a worse quarterback delivering a better ball here: an easier catch for the receiver.

    Or it is possible that I am way, WAY overthinking this. If you slow it down, could be that Boykin is still moving as Lamar starts to release, then Boykin starts to settle, then he realizes where the throw is going and lunges to catch back up. In that case, Boykin has made this catch more difficult than it has to be, by inappropriately slowing down AGAIN.
    Route: Middle 'Stop' / Deep middle hitch?
    Win/Separation: n/a free release zone sit
    Ball Location: On target but location is high and tailing away from Boykin
    Catch: Nice adjustment to ball location away from frame. Would again like him to stay on his feet and make the catch. Again seems like he's making more of 'meal' of this play then it needs to be.

    I am noticing that he needs to use his feet to bring himself and his hands closer to the catch.
    His feet/legs go dead like he's making a sideline catch.

    Play Result/Design:mesh concepts:
    https://forum.russellstreetreport.co...66#post1754166
    "Those corners...and those safeties are going to be one-on-one... and we got to make them pay for it," Harbs

    "I think hed be[Lamar] the greatest player in the history of the game, Young said





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