Ravens United: Black Lives Matter

[PGCountyRaven85]

I love that the Ravens did this and are taking the lead as an organization on this. The Ravens are the best organization, best owner, best GM, best overall mix of players, most united team. Fucking beautiful.

[BustOfPallas]

The Ravens are the best organization, best owner, best GM, best overall mix of players, most united team. Fucking beautiful.

They are, which is one of the reasons they would have been a good spot for Kaepernick in 2017. Literally we probably would have been one of the best if not the best.

Not the first time they've been out in front on social issues.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.co...-gay-teammate/

[blueridgemtnman]

Mugsy Bogues says hi.

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And Spud Webb and others. But, you know they are by far the exception to the rule.

[wickedsolo]

Everyone believes that they have earned what they have due to hard work. It's often true, I assume it is in your case, but not always.

You say racism is "vile, stupid, and ignorant" so would I be right in assuming you don't think black and minority ethnic people as a whole are either more or less talented or hard-working than white people? If so, how do you explain racial differences in economic, educational and health outcomes?

You don't have to feel guilty, I don't think that helps anyone, but maybe it's worth considering that you don't know what other people's experience was.

Race never seemed to be a factor in your life because you come from a group that doesn't experience racism. The vast majority of people who come from other ethnic backgrounds say that their race did present obstacles. Every friend I've ever had from a minority background has talked about how they were negativley affected by racism. Should I call them liars because race has never been a factor in my life?

That is what people mean when they talk about white privilege. It's not saying that every white person is privileged or comes from a wealthy or massivley advantaged background. The privilege is that you don't have to think about race. It's not a factor in your life. That can lead people to think that it's not a factor in anyone else's life either. You're smart. You haven't been walking around with blinders on. You'd have noticed, right? My question is, why do people keep saying they are affected by racism, then?

That's why Tucker and millions of others are saying it's important to listen. It's hard to listen to something you don't want to hear. It can feel like your hard work and struggle is not being recognized. That you're being painted as the bad guy or part of the problem when you didn't make the system or ever want to benefit from unfairness.

You don't like emotional arguments. That suggests you like logic and value the truth. Don't you want to find out whether all those people who say they're affected by widespread racism really are lying or not? I think getting defensive when people talk about their experiences is a bit of an emotional response because, even if you decide their conclusions about systemic racism are untrue, that is still the way they have experienced it and processed it, so it's still real to them and therefore worth hearing and considering with an open mind.

My PoV is that if systemic racism wasn't a factor people wouldn't say it was because all those millions of people would be getting on with the millions of things that people do. Would so many people rally care about a manufactured grievance? Why would they bother?

Mostly towards your last paragraph, but I think you are not considering that most people are not smart. The average American reads at something like a 6th grade level. That’s a fact and there are numerous credible studies showing that data.

When you have a bunch of people that are uninformed or misinformed, incapable of informing themselves, and are angry; it’s not hard for them to buy into the idea of some nebulous boogey man that’s been holding them back.


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[darb72]

Everyone believes that they have earned what they have due to hard work. It's often true, I assume it is in your case, but not always.

You say racism is "vile, stupid, and ignorant" so would I be right in assuming you don't think black and minority ethnic people as a whole are either more or less talented or hard-working than white people? If so, how do you explain racial differences in economic, educational and health outcomes?

Shit policies from the people in charge. Baltimore remains one of the poorest and most violent cities in America. Baltimore spends 16k per student in public schools yet has terrible educational outcomes. Baltimore has had one white mayor in the last thirty years, 10 of 17 city council members are black, so the "systemic racism" argument does not make a lot of sense. There have been nine different police commissioners in Baltimore since 2000. Seven have been black, which is actually secondary to the fact that Baltimore is averaging a new police commissioner every two years. A former mayor who was removed from office for corruption came close to winning the nomination just last week. I think that blacks face systemic hurdles that currently are explained by systemic rot, not racism.

There is a misconception that the majority of blacks live in "ghettos". This isn't true; only around 36% live in urban areas. However, when 1/3 of a group of people are trapped in economically depressed areas with little opportunity for a good education it's going to bring down the statistics. I never attempt math if I can avoid it, but judging by the numbers in this article https://www.epi.org/publication/50-y...er-commission/ I'd think that the inner cities are responsible for some of these disparities.

You don't have to feel guilty, I don't think that helps anyone, but maybe it's worth considering that you don't know what other people's experience was.

When have I not done that?

Race never seemed to be a factor in your life because you come from a group that doesn't experience racism. The vast majority of people who come from other ethnic backgrounds say that their race did present obstacles. Every friend I've ever had from a minority background has talked about how they were negativley affected by racism. Should I call them liars because race has never been a factor in my life?

There are racist assholes out there, and they negatively affect people. I have never denied that. When I was applying for graduate school, a professor made me write a four page paper to convince her why I should get in, simply because I was a football player. I had to defend a student a while back after a professor removed him from her class for being a "bully". His real crime was being a football player. Does this indicate "systemic discrimination" against football players? Nope. Just a couple of bigots who don't represent the vast majority of professors. This, however, does indicate systemic discrimination. https://www.foxnews.com/us/lsu-profe...k-lives-matter

And that is the crux of my argument. I have just shown you a person in power actively discriminating against a group of people. If you want me to believe there is systemic racism against black people then the onus is on you (you here being the royal you) to show me evidence. I don't have to take your word for it.

That is what people mean when they talk about white privilege. It's not saying that every white person is privileged or comes from a wealthy or massivley advantaged background. The privilege is that you don't have to think about race. It's not a factor in your life. That can lead people to think that it's not a factor in anyone else's life either. You're smart. You haven't been walking around with blinders on. You'd have noticed, right? My question is, why do people keep saying they are affected by racism, then?

I'll never argue that there isn't racism. I went to high school in Cullman county and have been beaten up members of the KKK. The argument isn't whether racism exists, or even if there are no racist cops. It's "systemic racism" which is too nebulous of an idea to be an effective argument. Stats do not back up the argument.

That's why Tucker and millions of others are saying it's important to listen. It's hard to listen to something you don't want to hear. It can feel like your hard work and struggle is not being recognized. That you're being painted as the bad guy or part of the problem when you didn't make the system or ever want to benefit from unfairness.

Stanley, I think it was, said that "silence is violence". Combined with the phrase "white privilege" does paint me as part of the problem if not a flat out racist for believing stats over personal anecdotes when it comes to "systemic racism". It's an argument that starts from the predisposed position that I have in someway benefited from the poorly defined idea of "white privilege". Therefor it is not an argument made in good faith being that it only serves to cast blame or derision on the opposing view point.

You don't like emotional arguments. That suggests you like logic and value the truth. Don't you want to find out whether all those people who say they're affected by widespread racism really are lying or not? I think getting defensive when people talk about their experiences is a bit of an emotional response because, even if you decide their conclusions about systemic racism are untrue, that is still the way they have experienced it and processed it, so it's still real to them and therefore worth hearing and considering with an open mind.

I'm not being defensive. Saying they're lying or not presents a strawman argument. I have never said they're lying. It is my opinion that they're being lied to and people have a tendency to take the easiest answer. There are more whites, armed and unarmed, killed by police than blacks. Yet can you name me the last time one of those killings made national news? Whites are murdered by blacks at a 2-to-1 ratio and it never makes news even if they are explicitly racially motivated.

The opposite side of your argument is the numerous black people who say there isn't "systemic racism". Why should I believe one over the other?

My PoV is that if systemic racism wasn't a factor people wouldn't say it was because all those millions of people would be getting on with the millions of things that people do. Would so many people rally care about a manufactured grievance? Why would they bother?

Okay, this one deserves a bit of a sarcastic response. I can't help myself. Gee, I don't know of any political party that would use manufactured racial grievances to help solidify their grip on the reins of power. Could be the party that damn near elected a mayor who had previously been removed from office due to corruption.

A less sarcastic answer is certain people, be it politicians or race baiters, have a vested interest in promoting animosity between groups of people. There is a market for that.

[wickedsolo]

I refuse to be pulled into another debate, but I will respond to this with this one comment.

What you said above makes perfect sense.

Not everyone has an equal right to play in the NBA. We can agree on that.

Where we might disagree--and what makes your analogy off base--are situations in which equality should be expected.

I should expect to have the same opportunity to land a job based on my skills and work ethic. I should expect to be able to walk down the street in a nice neighborhood without being stopped and frisked by the police.

I was just told a story about a woman who badly cut her hand in a kitchen accident and was taken to the ER, seen promptly and told she'd need surgery on her hand. She mentioned quilting is her life's work, and asked for assurance she would regain full use of her hand. They told her it would be fine. Then a passing doctor recognized her as being a somewhat prominent professor at Yale University. He found out she was about to have surgery in the ER and immediately had her transferred to another hospital for an emergency 4-hour procedure with the best hand surgeon in the city.

That's special privilege. That is why people go to Ivy League schools, not because the schools provide a better education but because they provide better opportunity through networking.

Some people have no problem with this. After all, it has been SOP for years.

Others have come to see it as a big problem in a country founded on the idea that all men are created equal.

The aim of the BLM movement isn't to penalize you by taking away your advantages. It is about removing penalties on black people when these same advantages are withheld.

You are not limited to being only 5'8" because society withheld advantages from you. There was no wrong to be corrected.

BLM calls for correcting actual wrongs. It calls for taking much of the money that has been ineffectively spent for decades on capturing and caging black men, and instead spending that money on better city schools, access to healthy food, health care, and clean streets, so kids grow up with the same basic opportunity that kids anywhere in the state enjoy.

It seems perfectly sane to me. But I know many are opposed to using "their tax dollars" as "hand outs" to "lazy people" who who will just take advantage of "us". I believe this is the core belief system underlying structural racism in this country. Some people are not optimistic that our cities can be fixed, and they are satisfied with a strong police force to contain the problem from spilling into "our" lives that we "worked hard for."

Black Lives Matter isn't divisive. What I just described above is divisive. The last 100 years of civil rights in American have been divisive. Our criminal justice system is divisive.

Black Lives Matter's goal is inclusion. Its goal is to shatter the divisions between us and opportunity. If the movement is successful the entire phrase can be forgotten forever, because then All Lives Matter will finally become a true statement. Right now it is not.

To me all of this boils down to politicians posturing themselves for political opportunism.

You say that BLM wants to knock down barriers...yet by and large these are the people that vote for politicians that do nothing for them over, and over, and over again.

Recreational outrage is a thing and we are seeing it left and right. Why? Because it’s an election year.

People need to educate themselves on policies and what these politicians actually stand for. Then, they need to do something about it. If systemic racism is a thing and it is “inherent to our political and social fabric” then the only way you’re going to make progress is to stop voting for the people that perpetuate these bad policies and vote for people that are actually going to identify problems and fix them.


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[wickedsolo]

Mugsy Bogues says hi.

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True, but Mugsy had like a 40+ inch vertical. :-)


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[wickedsolo]

Frankly, I think one of the most offensive “things” about all of this are the obnoxious liberal white people who feel the need to take to social media and talk about how woke they are and about how they’re going to “listen...and learn”...from the safety and comfort of their own home in a gated community meanwhile Black communities are burning because of rioters and looters that don’t give a damn about justice or any aspect of it. Pure opportunism. Come Monday, those white people will hop in their cookie cutter BMW’s and go into their 6-figure salaried job.


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[arnie_uk]

Remember when Bisciotti got butthurt when Kap's girlfriend called ownership racist and then proved her right by pulling the offer from Kap when he never said those comments himself? Same owner who also donated millions to the Republican party, Roman Catholic Church. Interesting turnaround from Bisciotti.

She was completely out of line and kap should have apologised for what she said, unless of course he agreed, and in which case, as did happen, he wasnt going to be signed by biscotti or any other team.

That was the straw that broke the camels back.

From some one that didnt have an issue with kneeling.

[Shas]

To me all of this boils down to politicians posturing themselves for political opportunism.

You say that BLM wants to knock down barriers...yet by and large these are the people that vote for politicians that do nothing for them over, and over, and over again.

Recreational outrage is a thing and we are seeing it left and right. Why? Because it’s an election year.

People need to educate themselves on policies and what these politicians actually stand for. Then, they need to do something about it. If systemic racism is a thing and it is “inherent to our political and social fabric” then the only way you’re going to make progress is to stop voting for the people that perpetuate these bad policies and vote for people that are actually going to identify problems and fix them.

Okay. You opened up an entirely different can of worms. And I am right there with you. Our system is completely broken. Until we get money out of politics, expand congress, set term limits, and a whole long list of reforms, we're fucked.

Two separate issues. One, can we agree on the problem to be addressed. Two, is our current system capable of addressing it?

I will be voting for Biden. I think he's a terrible candidate, but the system offers me no better choice.

[NCRAVEN]

I will be voting for Biden. I think he's a terrible candidate, but the system offers me no better choice.

Didn’t you just reply to a post that said people need to educate themselves on what candidates actually stand for? :D

[Blovius_Maximus]

Does anyone believe that members of the Ravens organization (or ANY NFL organization) are having a "meaningful conversation" similar to what's being had on this forum?

"Systemic racism causes X."
"Oh, can you define 'systemic racism' so that I know what it IS and what it is NOT?"

"Black people are more likely to be killed by cops than white people?"
"Oh, what do the stats say? How do we know it is because of race rather than something race-neutral i.e. the death followed an adrenaline-pounding foot chase; the deceased pretended he had a weapon; the cop was inexperienced or poorly trained; the cop was alone with the deceased; night-time made it harder to see the suspects hands."

"White privilege means life is easier for white people than black people."
"A privilege is an advantage or benefit beyond a baseline. A privilege implies a privilege grantor. If a white person gets a fair hearing in court then he has received his due; he hasn't received a privilege. If a black person doesn't receive a fair hearing then he's been discriminated against; he hasn't been the hurt by white privilege. And just who is doling out these privileges?"

"Black Lives Matter too. It's time we listened to the concerns of black people. Defund the police, end for-profit prisons; decriminalize marijuana; pay slavery reparations."
"Of course black lives matter. You're insulting me by assuming I think they don't. Furthermore, I'm happy to listen to concerns. But listening does not mean agreeing with you. Defunding the police is terrible for X reason; I'm amenable idea B; tell me more about idea C; idea D is ludicrous. So, I've heard you; and I'm still not convinced. What now?"

Does anyone seriously believe that the merits of these issues were discussed? Does anyone believe that any BLM proponent who walked away from such a meeting and had HIS mind changed, had his viewpoints challenged to the point of doubt?

OR

Is the conversation more like the following:

"I hear your concerns. What do you want us to do?"
{listens to concerns; then leans into Tom Hagen's ear; whispers are exchanged}
We hear you. Your terms are acceptable.
{Meeting ends}

Bisciotti to Hagen: We just avoided a locker room civil war, a boycott, and being called insensitive or worse. It was a great conversation.

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Fraud and kabuki theatre are words that come to mind.