Ravens Offense 2020: Targets and Passing Game

[QtR Nevermore]

Ed is a super nice guy. I'll go ahead and say it: it's crazy to think that Duvernay is going to come in and earn more targets than Boykin this season (absent injury).

...

I'm not trying to say that there are NO elements where Duvernay the prospect is/was ahead of Boykin the prospect. I see three main things:

Hands
A big one, right? Duverny might have perfect hands. But Boykin has excellent hands. Perfect > excellent, but the margin is thin. This isn't going to be enough of an edge for Duvernay all by itself.

Toughness after catch
Duvernay is a tough, violent motherfucker after the catch. We're going to love this aspect of his game. Has a little bit of Steve Smith to him. Boykin doesn't have that same crash-thru-a-wall quality. On the other hand, Boykin is strong & fast & fluid after the catch. More "smooth" than "tough", stylistically. I expect Duvernay will get some "gadget" use: screens & toss sweeps & wheels etc. Boykin's not going to get those kinds of targets, he'll (probably) strictly play outside.

Decisiveness
Not sure this is the right word; I might be referring to "polish" here. Duvernay caught a hundred more passes in college than Boykin did. We saw some examples from this past season where Boykin seemed to hesitate on a route, play a little unsure. Duvernay is going to arrive with more command of what he's supposed to do on a route, than Boykin arrived with.
(But probably not more than what Boykin arrives in camp this season with.

The biggest hurdle for Duvernay getting more targets than Boykin this season, is playing time. Boykin is the clear starter at the X receiver position. He is basically unchallenged on the roster. The only other pure Xs we have are Jaleel Scott & Antoine Wesley.

I agree that Boykin is in pole position for the X receiver role but I wonder whether the Ravens need a typical X receiver in the offense? Lamar doesn't throw great jump balls to the sidelines and Roman's whole scheme has been about playing to his strengths rather than forcing him to do things he isn't so good at.

Lamar, the runnning game and Lamar's great passing between the hashes is going to make teams defend the middle and open things up for the outside recievers anyway, couldn't we take advantage of that space with speed just as well as size? If there were three Hollywoods we'd use them all regardless of who was an X, Y or Z.

That's really what my argument comes down to; the best way to get more targets is to make the most of the ones you get. Other than blocking, Boykin didn't really show much and it's definitely possible that one of the rookies shows more and forces Roman to find more ways to get him involved.

Inicdentally I was speculating that either one of the rookies might emerge. I wouldn't write off Proche's chances. A really productive receiver with great ball skills and return ability isn't someone I'd write off.

Regarding Steve Smith. The reason he took a year or two to develop as a WR wasn't down to lack of ability. It was due to stupid coaches looking at his height and deciding he couldn't play outside. (It may be relevant that it was Harbaugh who first treated him like a WR at the pro bowl.) If Duvernay is Steve Smith* I wouldn't want the Ravens to waste years of his rookie contract because they were making decisions based on height.

* Don't come at me. It was Jim who suggested this.

[QtR Nevermore]

• Gadget

Right away Duvernay arrives as a good hybrid James White - Percy Harvin type of player. He should thrive on those types of plays; it would be an easy way get him some involvement early. A lot of red zone work in this role, too.

This is another way one or both of the rookies can get more snaps. One's a returner and the other's a little powerhouse. If either one looks dynamic with the ball in the NFL it would be a great addition to the Ravens offense. Using players who can be a threat in the running and passing games is one area where there is a lot of room for improvement. ( I realise Boykin's blocking puts him that category too.)

[edromeo]

I agree that Boykin is in pole position for the X receiver role but I wonder whether the Ravens need a typical X receiver in the offense? Lamar doesn't throw great jump balls to the sidelines and Roman's whole scheme has been about playing to his strengths rather than forcing him to do things he isn't so good at.

I would agree that the "X" WR doesn't have to fit a specific size criteria to be productive/effective.

But narrowing down production at outside WR to 'throwing jump balls in the sideline' is misguided. And Lamar is a better outside thrower then people remember, its a carryover misperception from his rookie year that doesn't really stick...its similar to the misconception that Lamar isn't a good downfield thrower.

The staff specifically said the opposite of your last sentence...its in my sig:
"Those corners are going to be one-on-one and those safeties are going to be one-on-one against receivers, especially on downfield throws, and we got to make them pay for it,"

So I completely disagree that it would playing to an area that Lamar isn't so good at.

That's really what my argument comes down to; the best way to get more targets is to make the most of the ones you get. Other than blocking, Boykin didn't really show much and it's definitely possible that one of the rookies shows more and forces Roman to find more ways to get him involved.

I think anything is possible. I agree that its possible that a DuVernay garners more targets then Boykin I just don't think its likely.

We have very different perceptions of Boykin's skillset.

I wouldn't hold Boykin's limited targets against him.
The offense was dominant last year. Getting Boykin more targets was unnecessary.

Also the offensive scheme made no concessions to give Boykin easy targets like it did for Hollywood.

He didn't get free releases due to motion or lining up off the LOS, he didn't get RPO gimmes or screens like Hollywood.

Boykin lined up at the X receiver often against the opposing team's top CB and was asked to win.

Despite the circumstances Boykin still displayed the traits you want to see. He showed the speed to get open downfield, he was able to make section reaction adjustments, made some tough catches and he was able to get open sideline comeback routes.
It's on tape.

Also you seem to be unfazed by Roman (and DeCosta) stating the intention to increase Boykin's role in the passing game. When the OC and GM say they plan to get a particular player involved that's not nothing.

Inicdentally I was speculating that either one of the rookies might emerge. I wouldn't write off Proche's chances. A really productive receiver with great ball skills and return ability isn't someone I'd write off.

I agree with everything you say here and still consider Proche very much a long shot.

[JimZipCode]

* Don't come at me. It was Jim who suggested this.

I think I got it from DeCosta. He said something on draft weekend, talking about Duvernay, about liking those competitive guys with that "MY ball!" attitude. Said that the Ravens have had success with those guys in the past, in Smitty & Boldin.

I didn't make it up! Is what I'm saying.

Lamar, the runnning game and Lamar's great passing between the hashes is going to make teams defend the middle and open things up for the outside recievers anyway, couldn't we take advantage of that space with speed just as well as size?

Sure. That's a great argument for Boykin: same straight-line speed as Duvernay, much better change-of-direction & explosiveness.

That's really what my argument comes down to; the best way to get more targets is to make the most of the ones you get. Other than blocking, Boykin didn't really show much ...

Boykin led all Ravens in yards-per-target. He literally made more of the targets he got, than any other Raven.

BTW, second place was Hayden Hurst; also underused.

If there were three Hollywoods we'd use them all regardless of who was an X, Y or Z.

In a rotation, sure. They couldn't block for shit though, so the chances to use them together would be quite limited.

Inicdentally I was speculating that either one of the rookies might emerge. I wouldn't write off Proche's chances. A really productive receiver with great ball skills and return ability isn't someone I'd write off.

'm very skeptical of Proche. But NJ tells me I'm being ignorant about him, so I'll wait to see what he shows in preseason.

Or, uh, whenever.

Using players who can be a threat in the running and passing games is one area where there is a lot of room for improvement.

Agree.

We got a couple more of those guys, now. Duvernay as you point out. I think Dobbins will ultimately be excellent out of the backfield. And Marquise will likely get a few more Jet sweep carries, now that his foot is better.

[edromeo]

DuVernay-
Big fan
Great hands, quick feet
Strong through the catch point
Has the confidence of being a high volume receiver
He is stiff but Boldin was stiff too
I don't think he's limited to the slot
I hope to see him eating into Snead snaps/targets

[QtR Nevermore]

I think I got it from DeCosta. He said something on draft weekend, talking about Duvernay, about liking those competitive guys with that "MY ball!" attitude. Said that the Ravens have had success with those guys in the past, in Smitty & Boldin.

I didn't make it up! Is what I'm saying.

I hope he is. I just didn't want to catch the heat for saying it.

Sure. That's a great argument for Boykin: same straight-line speed as Duvernay, much better change-of-direction & explosiveness.


Boykin led all Ravens in yards-per-target. He literally made more of the targets he got, than any other Raven.

BTW, second place was Hayden Hurst; also underused.

What about yards per route run? I think the ability to separate/get open is number 1, 2 and 3 for receivers. Players who can do it get targets.

I think this whole discussion comes down to our opinion of Boykin. You were encouraged. I was a little disappointed he didn't turn his fairly high number of snaps into more production.

In a rotation, sure. They couldn't block for shit though, so the chances to use them together would be quite limited.

Fuck blocking. Cover that if you can. How many defenders would they drag out the box?

[QtR Nevermore]

I would agree that the "X" WR doesn't have to fit a specific size criteria to be productive/effective.

But narrowing down production at outside WR to 'throwing jump balls in the sideline' is misguided. And Lamar is a better outside thrower then people remember, its a carryover misperception from his rookie year that doesn't really stick...its similar to the misconception that Lamar isn't a good downfield thrower.

The staff specifically said the opposite of your last sentence...its in my sig:
"Those corners are going to be one-on-one and those safeties are going to be one-on-one against receivers, especially on downfield throws, and we got to make them pay for it,"

So I completely disagree that it would playing to an area that Lamar isn't so good at.

By talking about jump balls, I wasn't trying to narrow X Receiver production down to just that. I was looking at the areas where height would be a factor.

For almost everything else height wouldn't matter. Any receiver can capitalise one on one downfield if they have the speed. We don't need to throw endzone fades because, not only are they apparently the least effective play in the entire NFL playbook, but Lamar can open up angles with his movement.

Also you seem to be unfazed by Roman (and DeCosta) stating the intention to increase Boykin's role in the passing game. When the OC and GM say they plan to get a particular player involved that's not nothing.

Completely agree that Boykin is Plan A. My guess was that it wouldn't work out and we'd have to go to Plan B. (Entirely based on my target share prediction stab in the dark.)

[JimZipCode]

What about yards per route run?

Junk stat. A fancy way to spell out who gets high volume. Literally conveys no info other than who is getting the targets.

I think the ability to separate/get open is number 1, 2 and 3 for receivers. Players who can do it get targets.

True dat. And by the way, it's refreshing to see someone bring an alternate take from "if you dont catch everything then nothing else matters."

This isn't much of an argument for Duvernay over Boykin though, since route running is the one weakness picked out in all the Duvernay scouting reports.

I think this whole discussion comes down to our opinion of Boykin. You were encouraged. I was a little disappointed he didn't turn his fairly high number of snaps into more production.

Me too.

Two things mitigate that for me. One, I don't expect high polish from a rookie WR. I just want to see flashes of ability. We totally saw that from Boykin.
(And much more from Marquise. He blew me away.)

And two: I can't pin all the blame on Boykin, when we see him on tape running free deep for what should be sure TDs, and Lamar choosing to throw short for first downs. I can think of another 2 TDs and ~125 yds off the top of my head, without diving into the tape. I bet Boykin would've doubled his yards & TDs, without any change in his actual play, if our first-year-in-a-new-offense QB had been looking for him.

Boykin was in a low-target role in our offense. That's different from being a low-talent player.

Fuck blocking. Cover that if you can. How many defenders would they drag out the box?

I think the Chuck & Duck has been shown to be a non-sustainable offense in the NFL.

Uh, however: if anyone could run it successfully, it would be Lamar. Definitely not Roman's bag, though.

[JimZipCode]

Completely agree that Boykin is Plan A.

I still expect Marquise & Mandrews to get more targets than Boykin. I have Boykin as Plan A only for the WR #2 / pass catcher #3 role.

Not, like, Plan A for moving the ball thru the air.

[JimZipCode]

By talking about jump balls, I wasn't trying to narrow X Receiver production down to just that. I was looking at the areas where height would be a factor.

Releases off the line vs physical play from a corner, I think. The X traditionally has some size to him (not just height) so he can fight thru press and get into his routes.

Marquise doesn't need size, in part because at Z or Y he plays off the line. DBs can't put their hands on him at the snap. The guy playing WR on the other side of the formation needs a little more heft.

[edromeo]

By talking about jump balls, I wasn't trying to narrow X Receiver production down to just that. I was looking at the areas where height would be a factor.

Oh okay. I'm not saying Boykin will receive targets at X due to size.
I'm saying that Boykin will receive targets because last season he was under-targeted and flashed areas where he could be productive.

... Lamar doesn't throw great jump balls to the sidelines and Roman's whole scheme has been about playing to his strengths rather than forcing him to do things he isn't so good at.

I was focused on this part of your comment which I took as a rationalize for why you thought Boykin might not receive targets. Just got our wires crossed here talking past each other I guess.

For almost everything else height wouldn't matter. Any receiver can capitalise one on one downfield if they have the speed. We don't need to throw endzone fades because, not only are they apparently the least effective play in the entire NFL playbook, but Lamar can open up angles with his movement.

You might be conflating this part of our discussion w/ your discussion w/ JZC.
My first statement was to agree with you that the X position doesn't have to a "size" requirement to be productive.

I would agree that the "X" WR doesn't have to fit a specific size criteria to be productive/effective.

Completely agree that Boykin is Plan A. My guess was that it wouldn't work out and we'd have to go to Plan B. (Entirely based on my target share prediction stab in the dark.)

How about a friendly wager on who gets more targets Boykin or DuVernay?

[GreatWhiteNorthRaven]

One thing that might work in Duvernay's favour is that we're able to run more crossing routes from the slot rather than routes that demand cuts (in, out, etc.).

We;re able to do that becuase we see so much zone.

Big thing for Duv is going to be understanding defenses and working into those pockets. That's one thing that Snead has done well in his career. The big thing is that Duv has a much better athletic profile than Snead does.

Spider Chart
https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/devin-duvernay
https://www.mockdraftable.com/player/willie-snead

RAS
https://relativeathleticscores.com/2...-duvernay-ras/
https://relativeathleticscores.com/2...lie-snead-ras/