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  1. #385

    Re: Ravens Still Don't Get it it at WR

    Quote Originally Posted by WrongBaldy View Post
    LOL

    i think it involved you and too much henny my man
    It definitely wasnít me, I donít want to get too much into that I want to start fresh, talk football and stay away from any drama and not cause any problems.





  2. #386

    Re: Ravens Still Don't Get it it at WR

    Quote Originally Posted by JimZipCode View Post
    Even I have to say that Boykin hasn't "proven" his receiver chops. He has shown some good stuff. His athleticism translates, he's smooth, and he's a plus blocker for the position. Hard worker, good teammate, and not Perriman. That's all positive. But it's way too strong or premature to say that he's "proven" his receiving ability. "Flashed his potential", yes I would agree with that. "Proven", no of course not.Didn't one of our coaches, at some point over the last couple offseasons, let drop that he thought any WR who didn't own a Jugs Machine was an idiot? Anyone remember that?
    Quote Originally Posted by NjRavensFan View Post
    Wait, what? What about his college tape indicates his hands arenít a strength?
    Quote Originally Posted by JimZipCode View Post
    I don't think Shas is saying that. I think he's saying that there was a lack of college "production", ie volume, or counting stats. Which is true. Not that there was an observable trait of "bad hands" on Boykin's tape.
    I am saying both were questions for me as he was coming into the league.

    Let me first say I am not hating on the guy and not saying I think he will bust. What I have always said is that my jury has still been out on the guy and he has yet to force me to change my view. I've yet to be excited by the pick. Which is not to say I was disappointed by the pick. Since he arrived I've seen some good things but not consistent production.

    The first red flag for me looking at his college resume was the lack of production -- i think it was like 80 catches for 1000 yards and 10 TDs for his entire four year college career.

    When I see a guy who has top three athletic traits and production no where near that level, I think, "uh oh, that is the classic recipe for a poor Ravens draft pick." To wit, in his best season, his receptions total was like #120 in the NCAA, whereas Porche and Duvernay were top 2 in their final college seasons.

    That's when I start looking at the scouting reports to figure out why. I recall a lot of reports blaming the QB for Boykin being infrequently targeted. Regarding his hands, which is the most important factor, I believe. I recall mixed opinions on this. I am not going to go back and try to analyze all the scouting reports, but I googled "Miles Boykin Draft Profile" and this is the first one that came up:

    DraftNetwork.com

    Hands ĖHe's got soft enough hands, but question his strength to squeeze the football. He's let several receptions slip through the cracks with late arriving defenders batting at the football and forcing him to drop the football after he's had it established.

    Contested Catch Ability ĖHe's got surreal size and can certainly attack the football with aggression to high point and steal a reception. That said, he's slow to react to back shoulder throws on the boundary, or much too early to peel back. Poor timing when addressing the ball.
    Like I said, I am sure there are reports that will describe his hands differently. But it's enough to give me pause, which is all I have ever claimed to be suffering from. He just needs to prove it to me, that's all.

    As I also said, I took note when Harbaugh the other day made this point about Boykin, in his usual positive way of pointing out a weakness "[I think he can] catch tough, contested passes in critical situations with defensive players hanging all over them. I think thatís the kind of guy Miles can be.Ē And he went on to say Boykin bought his own personal JUGS machine to work on his hands.

    I don't recall the quote you are trying to recall, Jim, about players who don't own JUGS machines are idiots, but apparently Miles did not own one until now.

    Hearing Harbaugh's quote I thought lent credence to my general impression of Boykin as a players with tons of talent and just need to be a more consistent pass catcher in order to break out and establish himself in a key role. I believe Harbaugh and the staff believes he can be a physical receiver who can be a consistent target in traffic and a guy who can do damage after the catch--but he's not there yet.

    Hence my wait and see attitude.





  3. #387

    Re: Ravens Still Don't Get it it at WR

    Iím a draft nerd, full blown geek.

    I watch the film, read the reports, grade the players etc.

    Everyone is gonna have different takes on the WRs as prospects.

    But without watching the film, taking a report as the basis for your impression of player can lead to incomplete understanding of the player.

    If you watch the QB service Miles received and look at NDís ďpassing schemeĒ you understand more about who Miles was as a prospect. ND QB play and playcalling were not conducive to any WR having volume production. He played in the opposite situation of DuVernay and especially Proche. Miles market share was 14% compared to 22% for DuVernay and Porsche that ainít bad considering the scheme differences.

    Objectively speaking he had a low drop rate. Considering his circumstances at ND itís even more impressive.

    None of this means heíll make it as pro.
    Just discussing Miles as prospects as you were above.
    Last edited by edromeo; 05-29-2020 at 08:48 AM.





  4. #388

    Re: Ravens Still Don't Get it it at WR

    Fair enough. I probably look 90% deeper than the average fan, but only 20% as deep as the draft nerds on this board. Like I said, my analysis didn't lead to any conclusions--only questions for me. And I think everyone seems to agree with me that we're waiting to see where his development goes.

    My point about Measurables > Production isn't a trivial concern for me. I have written long, long posts in the past documenting bad draft picks they have made -- almost aways picks made in rounds 2-3 -- who have first round measurables without the college production to match.

    I can run through a long list of high ceiling guys they select in this range, figuring the could coach them up to realize their potential.

    These are players who never live up to expectations... or they make it so late in the process that they get paid by some other team to move on as soon as they figured it out--and the Ravens get nothing for their developmental efforts other than a comp pick.

    Hopefully Boykin makes a big jump this year and doesn't become another one of those guys.





  5. #389

    Re: Ravens Still Don't Get it it at WR

    I donít disagree with anything you are saying above.

    I was explaining my disagreement with your assessment of his hands and volume production as a prospect. I agree that production matters but you have to consider the circumstances. And yes I agree that lack of production was part of the reason why he was available in the 3rd round.





  6. #390

    Re: Ravens Still Don't Get it it at WR

    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    With all do respect, I am going to argue the Ravens finally do get it with wide receivers.

    My definition of getting it is very simple: choosing receivers who catch everything.

    This comment is going to pain a lot of people, but John Harbaugh has it exactly right. He has been saying this for a few years now. And now he seems to have a GM who is doing it.

    What they should not be doing is prioritizing receivers who is a certain "type" -- I won't be distracted by the endless chatter about so-and-so receiver's top-end speed, size, catch radius, route running, twitchiness, YAC, 3-cone drill...you name it. I dont want to hear it until you have shown me how he consistently catches lots and lots of passes.

    They finally started adhering to this philosophy when they took Hollywood last year.

    We all had receivers we liked who we thought they may nab in the first or second round. My guy was Aiyuk. Yours may have been Lamb. Or Jefferson. Or Reagor. Or Mims.

    The draft board may not have unfolded in a way that allowed your guy to be the pick. But that doesn't mean they "don't get it" when they valued Queen or Dobbins more than those players. Or that they didn't package picks to jump up to go get your guy.

    The fact they drafted two receivers in Duvernay and Proche who do catch everything, and who were tops in college football in total receptions last year, tells me that now completely get it. The fact they didn't force the pick of an inconsistent hands guy like Reagor tells me they get it.

    When it comes to receivers, every year there are surprises. Sammy Watkins versus Jarvis Landry in '14. Kevin White versus Tyler Lockett in '15. Corey Coleman v. Tyreek Hill in '16. John Ross v. Kenny Golladay in '17.

    I'm happy with the last two drafts and happy to not be banking on Jeremy Maclin, Michael Crabtree, John Brown, Mike Wallace, Kamar Aiken....
    .
    Don't get why some people get so bent out of shape about hands. Hands aren't the only thing that matters when it comes to playing receiver. Is Amari Cooper bad now because he drops balls every once in a while? To me I look at whether a receiver is separating or not based on their plan on attacking coverage, then route technique, what gimmicks they use to get late separation. Of course they need to be consistent at catching but I could live with drops depending on the type of routes they run. And I'm less forgiving to the hands of possession receivers who's strength is catching.

    I would say the Ravens problem is that they have given receivers mediocre QBs and unimaginative offenses and they try to fit guys in roles that they weren't comfortable in. The only success at receivers came from proven vets (Mason, Boldin, SSSr) and they haven't really developed home grown guys. They don't ever seem to develop better route running, releases, or tactics in attacking coverage. They were so far behind I'm not surprised that they have poor hands when it comes to making clutch catches.

    For developmental Ravens receivers, Boykin has bigger issues to focus on than catching which can be fixed with a catching program or regiment. It's cool that Duvernay and Proche have good hands but I'm not sure why you think good hands in college is going to translate to guys getting open in the first place?





  7. #391

    Re: Ravens Still Don't Get it it at WR

    Well, Seraph, I couldn't disagree with you more, respectfully. Hands are the only thing, in the sense that if you don't catch consistently nothing else matters for me. It's like saying linemen can alway work on blocking and running backs can always work on running and quarterbacks can always work on throwing and linebackers can work on tackling.

    I do think guys with good hands and lots of production definitely do translate.

    It doesn't guarantee success. I realize there are a lot of other things that need to happen particularly for WRs.

    But if you don't have the basic skill for the position--making lots and lots of catches--then conversation over for me.





  8. #392

    Re: Ravens Still Don't Get it it at WR

    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    Well, Seraph, I couldn't disagree with you more, respectfully. Hands are the only thing, in the sense that if you don't catch consistently nothing else matters for me. It's like saying linemen can alway work on blocking and running backs can always work on running and quarterbacks can always work on throwing and linebackers can work on tackling.

    I do think guys with good hands and lots of production definitely do translate.

    It doesn't guarantee success. I realize there are a lot of other things that need to happen particularly for WRs.

    But if you don't have the basic skill for the position--making lots and lots of catches--then conversation over for me.
    Amen. After years of the Ravens constantly drafting tall receivers with great speed but questionable hands, I'm quite pleased that DeCosta is investing in receivers who can actually catch the damn ball.
    Let's win the f**king game.
    Joe Flacco





  9. #393

    Re: Ravens Still Don't Get it it at WR

    On Boykinís production:

    Hollywood vs Boykin as a proportion of their teamís passing offense in 2018:

    Boykin:
    22% of his teamís receptions
    26% of his teamís yardage
    35% of his teamís TDs

    Hollywood:
    27% of his teamís receptions
    29% of his teamís yardage
    23% if his teamís TDs

    Obviously Hollywood had two years of production compared to Boykin, who was hampered by injury his first two years there. But when you consider the context of the offense in which he playedóextremely run heavy with poor QB playóthe fact is his production in 2018 wasnít actually underwhelming at all.

    Raw production does matter in terms of development. Fewer routes run and fewer receptions means fewer game reps, obviously. And thatís clearly one area where Boykin is a bit behind relative to someone like Hollywood, who came into the NFL mentally ready to contribute day one. But in terms of what Boykin himself could control I personally have a hard time looking at his production as anything but a positive. Put him on a high-flying Big 12 offense and I think he puts up monster numbers





  10. #394
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    Re: Ravens Still Don't Get it it at WR

    the question of hands vs. separation (i'm sort of summarizing the latest posts this way) is not independent of the QB. you can't play man coverage against LJ cause that forces corners to turn their backs on him giving him chances for huge runs. the typical 11-on-10 that gives defenses a one-man advantage playing non-mobile QBs disappears, so you really really need to bring 8 into the box to stop the run (so secondaries are undermanned). there's also the fact that with other QBs, when everybody is covered you throw the ball out of bounds. now when everyone is covered LJ just runs for 8 yards.

    i really think it's much less important to have WRs who excel at getting separation on their own since the rest of the offense basically prevents defenses from smothering them with coverage and still punishes teams when they do get good coverage. i really think the organization is spot-on with drafting receivers who catch over receivers who get separation. the secret dagger of this offense is the efficiency of the passing game, and having receivers who can catch is a big part of that.





  11. #395

    Re: Ravens Still Don't Get it it at WR

    Quote Originally Posted by NjRavensFan View Post
    On Boykin’s production:

    Hollywood vs Boykin as a proportion of their team’s passing offense in 2018:

    Boykin:
    22% of his team’s receptions
    26% of his team’s yardage
    35% of his team’s TDs

    Hollywood:
    27% of his team’s receptions
    29% of his team’s yardage
    23% if his team’s TDs

    Obviously Hollywood had two years of production compared to Boykin, who was hampered by injury his first two years there. But when you consider the context of the offense in which he played—extremely run heavy with poor QB play—the fact is his production in 2018 wasn’t actually underwhelming at all.

    Raw production does matter in terms of development. Fewer routes run and fewer receptions means fewer game reps, obviously. And that’s clearly one area where Boykin is a bit behind relative to someone like Hollywood, who came into the NFL mentally ready to contribute day one. But in terms of what Boykin himself could control I personally have a hard time looking at his production as anything but a positive. Put him on a high-flying Big 12 offense and I think he puts up monster numbers
    Using your measuring stick, if a team runs a crappy passing offense, but a receiver is able to garner a quarter to a third of the production in that crappy offense, the question is--if put him in a better passing offense--can I extrapolate that player's performance and assume something near the same level of 1/4 to 1/3 of of his team's passing production totals?

    Maybe yes, maybe no. Your last paragraph explains why performance may not be scalable.

    So I am back to where I started, with more questions than answers. We're still dealing with theory and I'll just have to wait to see data before I am willing to provide my own theory on what kind of player he will be this year.





  12. #396

    Re: Ravens Still Don't Get it it at WR

    Quote Originally Posted by Shas View Post
    Using your measuring stick, if a team runs a crappy passing offense, but a receiver is able to garner a quarter to a third of the production in that crappy offense, the question is--if put him in a better passing offense--can I extrapolate that player's performance and assume something near the same level of 1/4 to 1/3 of of his team's passing production totals?

    Maybe yes, maybe no. Your last paragraph explains why performance may not be scalable.

    So I am back to where I started, with more questions than answers. We're still dealing with theory and I'll just have to wait to see data before I am willing to provide my own theory on what kind of player he will be this year.
    I just donít know how this is your takeaway from that post. Given the opportunities he had, he produced. Thatís just a fact.

    My last paragraph was pertaining to his readiness for the NFL. It had nothing to do with college production.





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