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  1. #25

    Re: 2020 NFL Draft - EDGE Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by edromeo View Post
    Well then we can agree to disagree. I side with the majority of the NFL and football in general that considers the difference between 43 DE and 34 OLB (rush) are inconsequential. Hence why they are lumped together as "edge" rushers and why OLB usually win their tag claims. Further, I disagree with saying that AJ wouldn't fit because his best role is a 43 DE when we actually play more 43 fronts then 34 fronts.
    Eh, I think the two often get lumped together because there is so much overlap in their responsibilities, not because the positions are basically identical. So, I would disagree with your assertion that the majority of the NFL and football in general considers the difference between the two as inconsequential. In fact, a player's ability to successfully transition from a 3-4 Edge to a 4-3 DE, or vice versa, is often discussed because there are some differences in what they are asked to do. Additionally, as far as I'm aware, most edge rushers are rewarded with a "hybrid" tag claim, as opposed to a pure DE tag, like they would like; which further supports the idea that they aren't quite the same thing. I do think they are closer to defensive ends than they are to traditional linebackers, but I think there is more than an inconsequential difference there.

    I also think we fundamentally disagree about what makes a 4-3 vs. what makes a 3-4. I see it more as having to do with the responsibilities asked; particularly gap assignments in the run game, rather than the number of players with their hand in the dirt. Though, I recognize this is a cloudy discussion, with a lot of grey area to reasonably disagree in. For instance, Wade Phillips runs a 1 gap 3-4. Meanwhile, a team like the ravens often runs a defense with 4 men with their hand in the dirt, but responsibilities more typical of a traditional 3-4. I think a lot of where we are disagreeing is in our conceptions of 3-4 vs 4-3. I can see where you're coming from here though, and it's not something I particularly care to bicker about or nitpick over.

    Quote Originally Posted by edromeo View Post
    I wouldn't call this a rule at all. More of a misconception. 34 Rush OLB do not play coverage as much as you seem to think. Its more atypical then typical to find a rush OLB that plays a lot in coverage. Of the 100 edge rushers (43 DE / 34 OLB) listed by PFF only 7 play a significant amount of snaps in coverage.

    But they way you are describing how he would be used isn't accurate. It wouldn't be scheme change to play AJ in the Rush OLB role because right now that Rush OLB role already doesn't play much in coverage.
    Ah, and here's the rub. Basically, this whole thing came up because you disagree with my concerns about his ability to play in coverage; not because you disagree about his lack of ability to do so, but rather, because that lack of pass coverage ability wouldn't matter that much. That's a fair point. Based on what I've heard, you've convinced me. I am far less concerned about his pass coverage now. It does still seem like it would be more beneficial to have a versatile defense that can send a 4 man rush with either OLB, and drop the other into coverage, like we had with Suggs. However, I can see how it may not be as important as I thought.

    Also, I must say, 43 + 34 = 77; not 100 lol. Something is off about that math, but I digress...


    Quote Originally Posted by edromeo View Post
    We both agree that he's better suited as a 43 DE and we happen to play 43 front about 70% of the time....I don't understand how/why you keep making the claim that he doesn't fit in role where the defense plays the majority of snaps?
    Again, this goes back to how you and I differ in how we define the two defenses. If you're saying we "run more of a 4-3", I think that's a bit of a hot-take, that the Ravens organization themselves would disagree with. However, I can see your reasoning for thinking that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by edromeo View Post
    I don't recall having ever said he would perform well in coverage, and I think you know that. My point is that his ability in pass coverage is not in any way a deciding factor for his draft selection. I'm sure his coverage ability is passable enough compared to other 34 Rush OLBs.

    I think AJ's best fit is at 43 DE because that's what he did in most often in college and therefore it would be much more natural transition.
    Understood.

    Quote Originally Posted by edromeo View Post



    I'm asking about what you were talking about in the quoted portion above.

    I was trying to get at an answer to my questions to see what you were referring to above.

    Anyhow here's a good article about relative positional athleticism.
    https://www.profootballnetwork.com/a...thletic-score/
    It's funny that you cited that article, because I had just read it myself earlier today. It's a pretty good read. Though, by regrouping the data set to include Defensive Tackles under 325 pounds, wouldn't that imply his more natural fit, from an athleticism standpoint, would be something between an edge, and a DT; ala a 5-tech? Meanwhile, the article mentions that his athleticism score is poor from a "traditional" edge sense. That would be counter-intuitive to your stance on him as a 3-4 Edge vs. a 3-4 end. Though, they did provide 2 Ravens examples of 3-4 Edge linebackers that were similar to him athletically.

    This comes back to how I felt like he's a natural fit at 4-3 DE, but I wasn't sure of how he fit in a 3-4. I had some concerns about his fit in either position in a 3-4. He doesn't quite have the natural athleticism for a prototypical 3-4 Edge, and he doesn't quite have the natural weight/strength for a prototypical 3-4 DE. However, I can see how they could carve out a role for him based on McPhee, Zadarius, and how you mentioned that many Rush 3-4 Edge linebackers are protected in pass coverage schematically. At the end of the day, I really do think that talent trumps "ideal fit" though. So, I'm sure they would find his niche here if they took him.

    Quote Originally Posted by edromeo View Post
    I will end with this....all OLBs are not the same. It happens at many positions. The skillset required for different 'types' of position players differ.
    I think there is somewhat rigid view of what a "34 OLB" is and how they look. The truth is you can have a 6'-245 OLB to 6'6-270 OLB.
    And iirc the initial conversation was about whether AJ fit as an edge rusher i.e. 34 OLB / 43 DE or an interior DL 43 DT / 34 DE.
    I certainly agree here. Though, I'm a believer in the need for some of that "rigidity". For instance, I am not a fan of taking an edge prospect that is in the 240 lb range. I think those guys are too light in the ass to make it in that role at the NFL level without bulking up significantly. I think those guys fit better as a SAM in a 4-3 defense. I also prefer more length, but I'm not as rigid in that regard. That said, I can see how a prospect like Epenesa, that doesn't really perfectly fit in any of those rigidly defined roles, is one that you can use to make the case against that type of rigidity.

    Quote Originally Posted by edromeo View Post
    Good convo either way.
    Lol, feels like I've been talking about AJ forever now.
    Cheers
    Yeah, definitely a good convo. It's interesting to gain a better understanding of why you see certain things so differently than me. Perhaps I'm too old school in my line of thinking regarding schemes, and positional roles. That said, you have convinced me that my concerns about his pass coverage ability as an Edge prospect were overblown. I also feel more confident that he would find his niche here if the Ravens took him, even it isn't a traditional kind of niche.





  2. #26

    Re: 2020 NFL Draft - EDGE Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by edromeo View Post
    Of the 100 edge rushers (43 DE / 34 OLB) listed by PFF only 7 play a significant amount of snaps in coverage.
    Quote Originally Posted by tnsmith90 View Post
    ...Also, I must say, 43 + 34 = 77; not 100 lol. Something is off about that math, but I digress...
    No worries. The 43 and 34 numbers were the roles of the position players not the total number. Meaning the 100 Edge Rushers included 43 scheme DEs and 34 scheme OLBs.




    Quote Originally Posted by tnsmith90 View Post
    Again, this goes back to how you and I differ in how we define the two defenses. If you're saying we "run more of a 4-3", I think that's a bit of a hot-take, that the Ravens organization themselves would disagree with. However, I can see your reasoning for thinking that way.
    One important distinction. I didn't say we run "more of a 43" I said that we run more 43 fronts and again its the same with most defenses because of how often teams pass now and the main defenses against 3+ WRs is a dime or nickel defense with a 4-man DL.


    Quote Originally Posted by tnsmith90 View Post
    At the end of the day, I really do think that talent trumps "ideal fit" though. So, I'm sure they would find his niche here if they took him.
    Agreed. I could even see a path to success with AJ at 5-tech in base 34. Again, this goes to scheme. Like you mention w/ Son of Bum. They're 1-gap 34 base has allowed for lighter 34 DEs to play well from Derek Wolfe to JJ Watt to Bruce Smith. To be clear I am not say AJ is as good as those guys only that 34 defenses have had lighter 5-techs succeed.


    Quote Originally Posted by tnsmith90 View Post
    Yeah, definitely a good convo. It's interesting to gain a better understanding of why you see certain things so differently than me. Perhaps I'm too old school in my line of thinking regarding schemes, and positional roles. That said, you have convinced me that my concerns about his pass coverage ability as an Edge prospect were overblown. I also feel more confident that he would find his niche here if the Ravens took him, even it isn't a traditional kind of niche.
    Cheers! Good convo. I'm actually interested in how other people see things and I'm glad we were able to discuss without resorting to message board tropes that can easily arise.





  3. #27
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    Re: 2020 NFL Draft - EDGE Thread

    I'm going to start with K'Lavon Chaisson and work my way down:

    K'LAVON CHAISSON #18 LSU
    6'3" 254 lbs at combine



    0:20 driven to ground by LT
    0:28 decent move, some bend but play designed against him
    0:36 unblocked, reads RB but not needed in play
    0:44 engaged by FB and eliminated
    0:54 jumpy at snap, not involved in play
    1:17 stonewalled by LT
    1:42 nice spin move on RT for a pressure
    1:51 drops into coverage on the short out; not primary target
    1:99 just stays at LOS unblocked, RB goes the other way. may have been assigned the QB on the option
    2:05 this time the jump costs 5 yards
    2:21 yup, he's got QB contain assignment
    2:28 double teamed, no push at all
    2:36 inside stunt executed averagely
    3:03 another stunt picked up (Auburn's OL looking pretty good) and taken out by a screen
    3:11 stonewalled by RT #71 Jack Driscoll
    3:31 drops into coverage again, covering... who?
    3:44 unblocked, good bend and angle to QB, no chance for Bo Nix
    3:54 jukes Driscoll out of his shoes and wraps up RB for TFL
    4:03 back on the other side vs LT #76 Prince Wanogho; washed out
    4:11 left unblocked again w/ failed screen the other way
    4:19 washed out by Prince again, loses QB contain
    4:28 drops into coverage again, loses TE leaking out and gives up 1st down
    4:41 LT got his mits on him, zero push
    4:49 FB #99 Spencer Nigh great block to take him out. play highlighted
    5:22 launches right by RT, unfortunately play went the other way (good job Grant Delpit!)
    5:49 providing very little on run defense
    6:31 lotta nothin on several plays in a row
    6:46 once engaged by one of the OT, not going anywhere
    6:55 lol trying to run around a fire hydrant (yes blatant holding)
    7:03 hey, the stunt works. Divinity gets the sack
    7:34 screen play right over his arms
    8:08 nice play here, staying home, reading the RB and preventing him from busting loose
    8:14 oh nice! gives LT the counter move for the pressure. highlighted
    8:47 seeing a fair number of coverage assignments in this game
    9:22 looks like a win vs the RB but the QB made a terrible throw
    9:33 washed out by LT
    10:11 kind of a clunky up-and-under with a worse effort to block from the LT. Pressure
    10:21 indicative of the game. engaged, no push, slant throw for TD.

    Getting a better sense of how competitive this game was. Gonna be watching more tape of it I'm sure.
    Last edited by WNCRavensFan; 03-30-2020 at 03:14 PM.
    "It's gonna be a problem. Whether Lamar Jackson runs it or not, it's gonna be a problem."
    - Brian Baldinger





  4. #28
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    Re: 2020 NFL Draft - EDGE Thread



    just highlighted plays here (17 min video):

    0:23 unblocked, burnt by QB scramble
    1:33 look how long the LT sustains this block
    2:50/2:57 ......welp
    3:03 first down, blocked, RB pushes through for six yards
    3:37 wins leverage and pushes LT to the QB
    4:03 in the NFL this could be a TD given up. Note Collin Johnson had CB beat
    6:00/6:12 absolutely throttled (and held) by #52... however this speaks to something I'll talk about
    6:32 here's where we see some of that twitch and athleticism, nice combo w/ Queen
    6:48 does the same thing, stunt inside and gets a sack!
    10:02/10:12 RT gets on him and once again you see, taken completely out
    13:02/13:15 ridden to the ground on the TD throw
    15:46/16:20 held badly in the process of blowing by the RT. dinged up on play


    ANALYSIS

    I watched more tape of LSU vs Alabama and Georgia to make more sure of my thoughts.

    Chaisson falls squarely into my Boom-or-Bust category. He capable of being a star. He has all the speed, flexibility, acceleration, agility and length that you want for an OLB. He is developing some moves but doesn't have a full repertoire. He can scrape the line, keep contain, and perform stunts admirably. He is not someone to run E-W against. He has the speed and athleticism to cover RBs and TEs if he diagnoses the play.

    BUT, if a big boy gets his hands on Chaisson, the play's over for him. The best way to describe him IMO is that he can make some great NFL plays for you... if he isn't touched. He's listed at 250 but his play looks more like a 230 lb-er. I'm concerned about him vs any power run game. I am also worried about him being hurt too often.

    I don't get the sense that Chaisson was one of the best handful of defenders on LSU's defense. It looks like he benefited from a superb secondary. He's really a guy that could use more refinement.

    There's another fast, light, athletic OLB from LSU, with decent but not great college stats, that Chaisson reminds me of: Barkevious Mingo. Whether he becomes another Mingo, or gets to a pro bowl level of play, depends on three things:
    1 - his football IQ (which appears high)
    2 - bulking up w/o losing much athleticism
    3 - staying healthy. He missed a season with a torn ACL already.

    I like this guy, but I don't love him. I think there's a good chance he gets overdrafted well before the Ravens pick.

    Grade: early Rd 2
    Comp: Vic Beasley
    Last edited by WNCRavensFan; 03-30-2020 at 04:36 PM.
    "It's gonna be a problem. Whether Lamar Jackson runs it or not, it's gonna be a problem."
    - Brian Baldinger





  5. #29

    Re: 2020 NFL Draft - EDGE Thread

    I dont have 1% of the draft knowledge yall do however Im hoping this is the position the Ravens spend their premiem draft bucks on, or a RB. Im bigtime believer in height/weight/speed/ at this postition, much more so than others.

    Something thats stood out to me in out recent failures at "edge" theyve all looked/played smallish. Obviously Tim Williams at DE 240 but also Correa and Bowser at 240 the latter being closer to 235 imo.They all looked way too light out there even on 3rd downs. Correa's game has a little pop to it but he was still too weak, it seemed like a strong shove could ruin him in any given play. Regardless of what the guys position is classified I hope theyre atleast 250 lbs preferably 6-3 or so.

    Von Miller is 250 and its just enough for him to dominate the edge like a DE and retain speed enough to be all world rushing the passer too.

    LT being the standard played at 235-240 but that was so long ago.





  6. #30

    Re: 2020 NFL Draft - EDGE Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mmcclend View Post
    I just wish YGM was more violent . . . .
    That's exactly what I see. He's got all the tools, but you don't see the hard physicality. I like him, though. I see a still developing, stand up outside backer. He's got a high ceiling. With the Campbell & Wolfe additions to the down DL, G-M would have time to grow without the immediate pressure 'to be the guy'. He's not the only guy I like at 28, but he's worthy at that point and it makes sense.





  7. #31
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    Re: 2020 NFL Draft - EDGE Thread

    WNC SAID:

    “I like this guy, but I don't love him. I think there's a good chance he gets overdrafted well before the Ravens pick.”

    Couldn’t agree more, WNC. I thought he played “light” the few times I saw him.
    "CARPE LOMBARDI"





  8. #32

    Re: 2020 NFL Draft - EDGE Thread

    Who is next, which game?





  9. #33
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    Re: 2020 NFL Draft - EDGE Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by edromeo View Post
    Who is next, which game?
    I'm gonna do AJ Epenesa today
    "It's gonna be a problem. Whether Lamar Jackson runs it or not, it's gonna be a problem."
    - Brian Baldinger





  10. #34

    Re: 2020 NFL Draft - EDGE Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by WNCRavensFan View Post
    I'm gonna do AJ Epenesa today
    Which game/s?





  11. #35
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    Re: 2020 NFL Draft - EDGE Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by edromeo View Post
    Which game/s?
    Here, I'll make placeholders. I will post two all-snaps vids vs better competition, preferably most recent year. These two are courtesy of Hash. I've used a lot of Deluded Yinzer vids too.

    AJ EPENESA, DE, IOWA

    6'5", 275 lbs at combine



    0:08 (RDE) not much here
    0:16 (RDE) kinda sorta chipped by the TE and contained
    0:32 (RDE) quick throws the other way are negating him
    0:39 (RDE) stunt, nowhere to go, good pickup by LG
    0:46 (RDE) QB assignment, loses RB
    0:53 (RDE) another stunt, nothing there. Minnesota throwing a lot of short quick passes
    1:02 (RDE) good thing they ran the ball. LT did nothing
    1:09 (RDE) throws the LT off him, but run the other way
    1:18 (RDE) everybody on Iowa's DL destroy their assignment
    1:26 (RDE) double teamed and contained
    1:41 (RDE) good flow to the RB, however just watched the tackle
    1:50 (RDE) not sure what he's doing here
    2:00 (RDE) nice play here shedding the blocker, another quick out throw
    2:10 (RDE) triple teamed (TE/RB/LT) and neutralized
    2:26 (RDE) perfect run D. Stands up LT, sheds block and tackles RB at LOS. highlighted
    2:33 (RDE) triple teamed by three OL o.O
    2:40 (RDE) double teamed again. going nowhere
    2:50 (RDE) drives LT #70 back five yards and affects RBs angle. highlighted
    2:56 (RDE) very next play, swims right by LT and affects throw. highlighted

    3:03 (RDE) now shows a rip move to creature pressure, QB scrambles upfield
    3:42 (RDE) runs right around LT and shows good angle of pursuit but juuust can't quite get there. great throw
    4:02 (RDE) loses initial battle but stays with play
    4:11 (RDE) okay. I giggled. wow
    4:21 (RDE) looks slow or indecisive on this play
    4:41 (RDE) #34 having a nice game. That is Kristian Welch, mental note
    5:05 (RDE) Minnesota having success while triple teaming Epenesa
    5:17 (RDE) fooled by QB fake throw, gives up running lane
    5:33 (RDE) complete win here negated by play design
    5:55 (RDE) I think he pushes the LT to the QB with one arm
    6:20 (RDE) swats LT away like a fly and makes money. highlighted
    6:26 (RDE) tackled by #70 lol is that a hold?
    6:59 (RDE) coverage sack, but Epenesa still makes the play on the other side of the field
    7:10 (RDE) double teams a-plenty, LT/LG this time
    7:37 (RDE) holy shit dude #70 needs a therapist after this game
    8:34 (RDT) inside for the first time - abuses LG #77 for pressure up the gut
    8:43 (RDT) second verse, same as the first. highlighted

    9:03 (RDT) clunky stunt but no matter. Played inside entire last series

    I make the point here of showing where he is lined up to illustrate how Iowa used him; this has been discussed before.

    THAT was a monster game.
    Last edited by WNCRavensFan; 04-01-2020 at 10:25 AM.
    "It's gonna be a problem. Whether Lamar Jackson runs it or not, it's gonna be a problem."
    - Brian Baldinger





  12. #36
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    Re: 2020 NFL Draft - EDGE Thread



    This time he's matched up against LT #75 Jon Runyan, a mid round prospect.

    0:07 runs around him and gives up running lane to RB
    0:13 unblocked; can't chase mobile QB down
    0:20 gets a lot of push but can't shed block
    0:25 at DT now, stunt creates success for other DL
    0:35 attempted swat move neutralized by Runyan
    0:47 walks him back to the QB
    0:56 stonewalled
    1:11 blatant holding
    1:19 walks 75 back to the QB again, but ineffective this time
    1:31 look at the penetration off the snap... but they ran the other way
    1:46 stunt ineffective but QB throws pick anyway
    2:09 Runyan wins this one too
    2:14 point for Epenesa as Runyan loses balance
    2:23 stunt picked up by RG
    2:44 well done LT, better anchor
    3:01 does his job w/ the option removing the QB from the play
    3:09 violently tosses LT to the side and engulfs QB for a sack
    3:24 beats LT again but screen pass other way
    3:36 has eyes on QB; no change of direction or chase speed
    3:54 LT does good job washing out; holding?
    4:24 double teamed, going nowhere
    4:30 another stunt, Epenesa draws two freeing up #57 but QB sees it
    4:46 bull rush, chip blocked; not enough variety in this game from AJ
    5:11 almost a shoestring tackle on the screen, like the effort
    5:53 bad play getting moved off his spot, gives up running lane
    6:11 everything is a hands battle today, both players stood up each other

    This was a more modest game from AJ, and was a good battle with Runyan all day. He'll have to expect more game like this at the next level, rather than the Minnesota game.

    ANALYSIS

    In several ways, AJ Epenesa is the antithesis of K'Lavon Chaisson as an EDGE player. While Chaisson is fast and light, Epenesa is slow and strong. Finesse vs Power. However, Epenesa is more athletic than some would be led to believe. His first step looks very good to me. He's got an initial burst that translates to his power drive. His game is simple - bull rush, counter rip or swim (more of a toss aside) but it works. Usually he's lined up outside the OT in an even front - sometimes so wide that running lanes are left open. He certainly knows how to perform a stunt/twist.

    I'd like to see a little more variety to his game than the bull rush all day long. Also, this guy can be run away from. He's got a slow top speed, evidenced by his 5.04 at Indianapolis. You hardly ever see him in coverage.

    You could theoretically draft both Chaisson AND Epenesa and play them on the field at the same time. Chaisson at OLB, Epenesa at DE. I do believe Epenesa can translate to a 5 tech and even play DT on passing downs.

    This guy's a handful and would be a solid addition to any team. I see low bust potential but he may not develop into a Pro Bowler either.

    Grade: late Rd 1
    Comp: Stephon Tuitt - AJ is lighter but same height, arm length & hand size
    Last edited by WNCRavensFan; 04-01-2020 at 10:33 AM.
    "It's gonna be a problem. Whether Lamar Jackson runs it or not, it's gonna be a problem."
    - Brian Baldinger





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