2020 NFL Draft - EDGE Thread

[AmishlandRavenFan]

Due to some recent demand I've created said thread. I'll try to have a review for these guys by the draft:

K'Lavon Chaisson
A.J. Epenesa
Yetur Gross-Matos
Julian Okwara
Terrell Lewis
Curtis Weaver
Josh Uche
Jonathan Greenard
Bradlee Anae
Jabari Zuniga

...and if there's more time I'll do Chase Young and some lower rd prospects. In the meantime feel free to chime in.

CRUSH KILL DESTROY

If time allows, Alex Highsmith, please.

[Dcat]

Interesting note on Gross-Matos was that both Clemson and Alabama jumped in late and went "all in" in trying to recruit him. When schools like Alabama try to wrestle a recruit away late like that, it screams legit.

[tnsmith90]

What are the speed / agility metrics you think he doesn't meet? What 'space' are you referring?

I agree that his best fit is a 43 DE. I think the difference between a 43 DE and a 34 Rush OLB is misunderstood/overstated. They really are not that different in terms of roles and responsibilities and that is why most football lump them together as 'edge rushers' and its why rush "OLB" successfully despite their "LB" franchise tags.

Also, the Ravens, like most NFL defenses, play more 4-man defensive line fronts i.e. "43" then they play base 34.
Iirc its ~65% "43" and 35% "34" base.
Therefore AJ is a fit in the defensive front the team plays most often.

I think you would agree that there is a lot more to a defensive scheme than simply the number of linemen with their hand in the dirt. Different defenses assign different responsibilities in both gap assignment in the run game, and in pass coverage. Simply having a linebacker line up in a 3 point stance doesn't change the entire scheme.

Having said that, the responsibilities of a 3-4 edge typically involve dropping into coverage far more often than a 4-3 DE. I think he would struggle if asked to do that.

[edromeo]

I think you would agree that there is a lot more to a defensive scheme than simply the number of linemen with their hand in the dirt. Different defenses assign different responsibilities in both gap assignment in the run game, and in pass coverage. Simply having a linebacker line up in a 3 point stance doesn't change the entire scheme.

I would agree but what point are you trying to make? The Ravens play far more 4-man / "43" fronts then 34.

Having said that, the responsibilities of a 3-4 edge typically involve dropping into coverage far more often than a 4-3 DE. I think he would struggle if asked to do that.

Sometimes they do sometimes they don't. There are some 34 rush OLB that almost never drop like Zadarius Smith (11) or others that drop a lot like Preston Smith (148). There were several 43 DEs that dropped more often then Z Smith a 34 OLB. It depends on the player. You wouldn't draft someone like AJ Epenesa and ask him to drop a bunch of times. Another example is Ferguson vs Bowser despite playing more snaps then Bowser, Ferguson only played coverage 18 times vs Bowser who played in coverage 84 times.

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You never answered the questions from the last post:
What are the speed / agility metrics you think he doesn't meet? What 'space' are you referring?

[edromeo]

Anyone heard of this guy?

Casey Toohill?

[ravensintennessee]

Random thoughts: I think Gross-Matos is a nice fit at 28. I feel like folks are a bit "blah" on him, but he's got intriguing size and length that I think we could mold. Although, I'd say he'd fit more in that Rush spot than Sam, and with Ferguson (another young guy who needs time to grow) there and Judon in the Sam, you gotta think the capital would be better spent on a Sam guy who can play in space like Okwara or Uche in R2 and fill in quickly if we trade Judon or move on after this year. But I think Gross-Matos does a lot of things well but nothing excellently, meaning he could end up being good value at 28.

For some reason I also am in love with Alton Robinson out of Syracuse. I have just watched highlights (full disclosure) but I think there's a scenario where he develops into a great pro, and I always find myself picking him up in the later rounds of mock drafts. I'm not against double dipping at edge and WR. We can make it work at other spots if we're a little short (IOL, ILB), but let's just keep taking shots at playmakers (when asked about WRs heading into last year, EDC essentially said "we gotta shoot our shot")

[tnsmith90]

QUOTE=edromeo;1874138]I would agree but what point are you trying to make? The Ravens play far more 4-man / "43" fronts then 34. [/QUOTE]

The point I'm making is though they have 4 men lined up with their hand in the dirt, they aren't playing a 4-3 style of defense schematically, even in those instances. The scheme doesn't change so that the responsibilities of the players vary that dramatically. For instance, you don't see Brandon Williams & Michael Pierce being asked to be 1 gap penetrators just because Ferguson lined up with his hand in the dirt, and formed a 4 man line. The responsibilities of the players largely stay the same. It's just that the linebacker with his hand in the dirt is being asked to play his same role in a slightly different way. (I recognize that in instances where they are in obvious passing downs, and they are in certain nickel/dime packages with substitutions, the scheme can change pretty dramatically; but outside of obvious passing downs, the scheme is going to be largely the same regardless of whether 3 or 4 guys have their hand in the dirt.) As it pertains to this conversation, the responsibilities of a 4-3 DE differ from the responsibilities of a 3-4 Edge, even if they have a lot of overlap. The differences in those responsibilities are where I think Epenesa would struggle with one position vs. the other.

Sometimes they do sometimes they don't. There are some 34 rush OLB that almost never drop like Zadarius Smith (11) or others that drop a lot like Preston Smith (148). There were several 43 DEs that dropped more often then Z Smith a 34 OLB. It depends on the player. You wouldn't draft someone like AJ Epenesa and ask him to drop a bunch of times. Another example is Ferguson vs Bowser despite playing more snaps then Bowser, Ferguson only played coverage 18 times vs Bowser who played in coverage 84 times.

Hence, why I said "typically". Typically, a 4-3 end is going to drop into coverage far less than a 3-4 edge. You can certainly find some exceptions to the rule, but the two positions do differ in what they are asked to do in most cases.

You can scheme around a players limitations, ala Z Smith. However, that obviously isn't ideal. It limits what the defense can do overall. If we were to select Epenesa, and play him at edge, we could probably scheme around his limitations in pass coverage, and due to his overall talent he'd probably perform well for us. However, that doesn't change the fact that he is better suited for a role where his team wouldn't have to scheme around that limitation.

I'm not saying he would suck if we took him, and played him at edge. I just think he's a better fit as a 4-3 DE, in part because of his pass coverage ability. I'm open to hearing why you think he would perform well in pass coverage though. Although, I'm curious as to why you agree his best fit is at 4-3 DE if not due at all to limited pass coverage abilities.

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You never answered the questions from the last post:
What are the speed / agility metrics you think he doesn't meet? What 'space' are you referring?[/QUOTE]

Are you asking about combine numbers here? His 40 time, while not bad for a DL, is very poor for an edge. 5.04 is about 2 tenths of a second slower than what you would like to see for that position, and the percentile was around 7% for edge players, off the top of my head. Additionally, his 10 yard split was poor, and his 3 cone time was below average for an Edge as well. If you're asking for athletic metrics, those would suggest he would struggle in pass coverage, either in zone or man.

I'm curious what you're trying to get at here, because I thought you and I were in agreement on where he projected best in the NFL. Care to elaborate on what you're trying to debate?

[tnsmith90]

Forgive the formatting errors. I'm on my phone in a web browser. I would edit it, but for some reason when I try to do that, it just deletes the whole thing.

[edromeo]

As it pertains to this conversation, the responsibilities of a 4-3 DE differ from the responsibilities of a 3-4 Edge, even if they have a lot of overlap. The differences in those responsibilities are where I think Epenesa would struggle with one position vs. the other.

Well then we can agree to disagree. I side with the majority of the NFL and football in general that considers the difference between 43 DE and 34 OLB (rush) are inconsequential. Hence why they are lumped together as "edge" rushers and why OLB usually win their tag claims. Further, I disagree with saying that AJ wouldn't fit because his best role is a 43 DE when we actually play more 43 fronts then 34 fronts.

Hence, why I said "typically". Typically, a 4-3 end is going to drop into coverage far less than a 3-4 edge. You can certainly find some exceptions to the rule, but the two positions do differ in what they are asked to do in most cases.

I wouldn't call this a rule at all. More of a misconception. 34 Rush OLB do not play coverage as much as you seem to think. Its more atypical then typical to find a rush OLB that plays a lot in coverage. Of the 100 edge rushers (43 DE / 34 OLB) listed by PFF only 7 play a significant amount of snaps in coverage.

You can scheme around a players limitations, ala Z Smith. However, that obviously isn't ideal. It limits what the defense can do overall. If we were to select Epenesa, and play him at edge, we could probably scheme around his limitations in pass coverage, and due to his overall talent he'd probably perform well for us.

But they way you are describing how he would be used isn't accurate. It wouldn't be scheme change to play AJ in the Rush OLB role because right now that Rush OLB role already doesn't play much in coverage.

However, that doesn't change the fact that he is better suited for a role where his team wouldn't have to scheme around that limitation.

We both agree that he's better suited as a 43 DE and we happen to play 43 front about 70% of the time....I don't understand how/why you keep making the claim that he doesn't fit in role where the defense plays the majority of snaps?

I'm not saying he would suck if we took him, and played him at edge. I just think he's a better fit as a 4-3 DE, in part because of his pass coverage ability. I'm open to hearing why you think he would perform well in pass coverage though. Although, I'm curious as to why you agree his best fit is at 4-3 DE if not due at all to limited pass coverage abilities.

I don't recall having ever said he would perform well in coverage, and I think you know that. My point is that his ability in pass coverage is not in any way a deciding factor for his draft selection. I'm sure his coverage ability is passable enough compared to other 34 Rush OLBs.

I think AJ's best fit is at 43 DE because that's what he did in most often in college and therefore it would be much more natural transition.

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What are the speed / agility metrics you think he doesn't meet? What 'space' are you referring?

Are you asking about combine numbers here?

I'm asking about what you were talking about in the quoted portion above.

I'm curious what you're trying to get at here, because I thought you and I were in agreement on where he projected best in the NFL. Care to elaborate on what you're trying to debate?

I was trying to get at an answer to my questions to see what you were referring to above.

Anyhow here's a good article about relative positional athleticism.
https://www.profootballnetwork.com/a...thletic-score/

I will end with this....all OLBs are not the same. It happens at many positions. The skillset required for different 'types' of position players differ.
I think there is somewhat rigid view of what a "34 OLB" is and how they look. The truth is you can have a 6'-245 OLB to 6'6-270 OLB.
And iirc the initial conversation was about whether AJ fit as an edge rusher i.e. 34 OLB / 43 DE or an interior DL 43 DT / 34 DE.

Good convo either way.
Lol, feels like I've been talking about AJ forever now.
Cheers

[edromeo]

https://www.profootballnetwork.com/a...thletic-score/

Looking at Epenesa’s numbers in a different way
So how do we quantify players like this, players who don’t fit the traditional build of an NFL edge rusher? How can we find players like this early instead of letting them fall the way Bennett, McPhee, and Smith did in the draft? For me, it was simply finding a different way to look at the data.
At first, that meant comparing players like this to defensive tackles, and while the scores would often be higher, it always felt artificial. I wouldn’t use those scores, but I would post both scores together to illustrate that the player wasn’t unathletic, simply a different kind of athlete. Like their role being caught between a tackle and edge, their profile was somewhere in between as well.
So I created a data set for these defensive linemen, consisting of defensive tackles below 325 pounds and removing the massive nose tackles that would rarely test well (and thus artificially inflate a player’s score). It also included defensive ends above 275 pounds, thus excluding the rangy, speedy ends that would artificially drop the scores of these players.
Among this new data set, we see a significantly different trend for players like Epenesa, Smith, Bennett, and the others. We see A.J. Epenesa’s raises all the way to 8.66 and Michael Bennett to a 6.56, while Za’Darius Smith’s score jumps to 8.77. DeForest Buckner and Arik Armstead, starters in the Super Bowl both drafted by the 49ers in the first round, scored an 8.93 and 9.63, respectively.

[sflegend89]

Interesting note on Gross-Matos was that both Clemson and Alabama jumped in late and went "all in" in trying to recruit him. When schools like Alabama try to wrestle a recruit away late like that, it screams legit.

If YGM went to Alabama and had the exact same production he's a lock top 10 pick. People love a powerhouse school product and think it inherently means they're better.

I'm higher on YGM than most and would jump all over a trade up if he made it to around 18-22 range

[Mmcclend]

If YGM went to Alabama and had the exact same production he's a lock top 10 pick. People love a powerhouse school product and think it inherently means they're better.

I'm higher on YGM than most and would jump all over a trade up if he made it to around 18-22 range

I just wish YGM was more violent. When I watch his tape it’s like he’s hesitant to tackle. Besides that, he looks like a good football player.