The Next Step of the Offense

[cvilleRaven]

Definitely to all those receivers better than this current group. Maybe not Travis Taylor lol. It's also not fair to compare the Brown and Boykin to the vets who also made their plays in their Super Bowls. Snead would be the only comparable player to those vets and he's only better than Lewis.

The same receiver corps that, with Shannon Sharpe at TE, and Priest Holmes and Jamal Lewis at RB, could not score an offensive TD FOR A MONTH?!? That's a better WR corps than what we have now? Ok.

[Desert Raven]

Some of yall are drinking the purple koolaid a little too hard when saying the pieces we have in the passing game compare to the old Pats teams lol. I love Hollywood, Andrews, Hurst, & Jackson as much as the next guy, but come on! We're comparing Lamar to the literal GOAT in his prime. We're comparing Andrews to the GOAT in his prime. We're comparing Hurst, who's accomplished nothing, to a guy that was a top 5 TE. Lastly, we're comparing Hollywood, who had a pretty good rookie year, to a perennial 100+ catch weapon in NE. That's all without even getting into the scheme! Let's settle down with using that team as proof that we don't need to add more talent in the passing game, because they were able to run up huge numbers with 2 good TEs & 1 good WR.

We need another weapon. Luckily, this draft is STACKED at WR! There are about 5-7 1st round talents to pick from...

You didn’t really get my point but let me ask you this, you want to go WR #1 again but two years ago they took a TE #1 that is severely underutilized? Instead of going out and drafting another WR like you’re suggesting, why not make Hurst/Andrews a real dual threat. The defense is where the valuable resources need to go. I never suggested that either one could be Gronk, I made that perfectly clear, but the comparison was lost on you to simply say that it could be effective if they would just maximize what Hurst and Hollywood can do because why go get another guy when two guys they already have who can be big pieces in the offense aren’t really being used to their potential yet. It’s not a glaring need people are just conditioned to be receiver crazy every time something bad happens.

[seraph]

The same receiver corps that, with Shannon Sharpe at TE, and Priest Holmes and Jamal Lewis at RB, could not score an offensive TD FOR A MONTH?!? That's a better WR corps than what we have now? Ok.

Put Lamar on that 2000 team and see what happens.

[cvilleRaven]

Put Lamar on that 2000 team and see what happens.

He gets eaten alive by the 2000 Tennessee defense. Different era, different protection rules. No way does he survive a full season in the old AFC Central.

[tnsmith90]

And we're picking 28th, so many of them may be gone by the time they get to us.

If a stud WR is available at 28, and is graded higher than any remaining OLB/DE, then by all means, take him. Otherwise, fix the front 7 before adding weapons to the offense. Stopping our opponents is a bigger problem than scoring points right now.

Of the top 20 highest scoring teams (by points scored per game) in the Super Bowl era, only one has gone on to win the Super Bowl (1999 Rams). Of the top 20 lowest points allowed teams (by points per game allowed) teams, 6 have won the Super Bowl. The 2013 Broncos (600+ points scored) lost 43-8 in the Super Bowl. The 2007 Patriots (589 points) lost to Eli Manning 17-14. Half of the top 20 scoring teams didn't even make the Super Bowl. Half of the top 20 defensive teams didn't make it either (though at least 3 of them lost to other teams in the top 30, and they DID win the Super Bowl - '69 Chiefs, '73 Dolphins, '00 Ravens)

Our front 7 is definitely our greatest area of weakness. That said, our WR core, outside of Hollywood, is also a weakness. It may not be as great of a need, but given that it's also a need, it's something that I'd like to see addressed if there is a better WR on the board than any available front 7 players at the time. When looking at the talent in this draft, I think the odds are very good that a WR will be the most talented available.

Also, we're picking at 28, yes, but given that there are around 5-7 WRs that look like 1st rounders, odds are very good we will have our pick of around 1-3 left on the board.

Lastly, this draft is not only deep at the top, but deep throughout. If we don't take a 1st round WR, we still have plenty of other picks to add talent at that position.

[tnsmith90]

You didn’t really get my point but let me ask you this, you want to go WR #1 again but two years ago they took a TE #1 that is severely underutilized? Instead of going out and drafting another WR like you’re suggesting, why not make Hurst/Andrews a real dual threat. The defense is where the valuable resources need to go. I never suggested that either one could be Gronk, I made that perfectly clear, but the comparison was lost on you to simply say that it could be effective if they would just maximize what Hurst and Hollywood can do because why go get another guy when two guys they already have who can be big pieces in the offense aren’t really being used to their potential yet. It’s not a glaring need people are just conditioned to be receiver crazy every time something bad happens.

Couple of things:

First, don't take it personal. I just read through the thread, and noticed several posters bringing up that NE offense as proof that our weapons are sufficient. If I wanted to address you specifically I would've quoted you.

Having said that, I get wanting to maximize the assets in place already. It's just that, to use that team as proof, is silly due to the immense difference in talent. So, using that team actually detracts from the argument. It's kind of like saying the Beatles made it so we shouldn't give up on our garage band and get real jobs.

Now, I do agree that the front 7 is a bigger issue though. I want to see that get addressed as well. However, I think we can add assets to both areas given the cap space available, and the amount of picks.

Also, I look at unproven players as risky assets that aren't guaranteed to hit. So, even if we have Hurst, and Boykin as players with decent chances of eventually becoming impact players, neither is a guarantee. With that in mind, I'd like to add another risky asset at WR into the mix to increase the odds one or more of them hits. With how much talent that's available at WR in this draft, I'd be annoyed if we didn't take advantage & snag someone.

[The Excellector]

I don't think there's any question that the Patriots have long gotten the most out of their guys at WR and TE. At one point, it was only Gronkowski, Hernandez and a slot WR. They didn't have anyone on the outside who scared anyone. They built their passing offense to revolve around those guys and got the most out of them.

[The Excellector]

Well, let me pose this question. Do we think that, without significant additions, next season, Roman can get the most out of Hurst, Brown and Andrews? He seems to have gotten the most out of Andrews, doing a great job of using his strengths to the offense's advantages. The best routes that Andrews ran at Oklahoma, are the routes you most often see him running in this offense. Now, to be fair, Brown was consistently dealing with a injury. Given the circumstances, I think we can all agree that he got more out of Brown than anticipated. That leaves Hurst. Hurst is more versatile in his route running. He can effectively run more of the route tree than Andrews. He has better hands than Andrews. Unfortunately for him by chance, he's also a better blocker than Andrews and Roman emphasized that aspect of his game.

I don't see how anyone can say that Hurst has to earn it, while looking at the way he's played and come away feeling that he didn't. Like what more could Hurst have done with the opportunities that came his way, throughout the season? I honestly and truly believe that his quality blocking worked against him in this offense, because in those TE heavy sets, he drew more blocking assignments than Andrews, while Andrews was used more in the passing offense. Not because he was significantly better than Hurst in that area, but because Hurst was significantly better than Andrews at blocking.

[Desert Raven]

Well, let me pose this question. Do we think that, without significant additions, next season, Roman can get the most out of Hurst, Brown and Andrews? He seems to have gotten the most out of Andrews, doing a great job of using his strengths to the offense's advantages. The best routes that Andrews ran at Oklahoma, are the routes you most often see him running in this offense. Now, to be fair, Brown was consistently dealing with a injury. Given the circumstances, I think we can all agree that he got more out of Brown than anticipated. That leaves Hurst. Hurst is more versatile in his route running. He can effectively run more of the route tree than Andrews. He has better hands than Andrews. Unfortunately for him by chance, he's also a better blocker than Andrews and Roman emphasized that aspect of his game.

I don't see how anyone can say that Hurst has to earn it, while looking at the way he's played and come away feeling that he didn't. Like what more could Hurst have done with the opportunities that came his way, throughout the season? I honestly and truly believe that his quality blocking worked against him in this offense, because in those TE heavy sets, he drew more blocking assignments than Andrews, while Andrews was used more in the passing offense. Not because he was significantly better than Hurst in that area, but because Hurst was significantly better than Andrews at blocking.

Not trying to intentionally stir the pot, but it’s probably not blasphemy to suggest that LJ probably makes Roman look smarter than he really is. In the playoff game the passing offense looked extremely basic at times. At one point during the season they were feeding the ball to Boyle more than Hurst. Hurst is a good blocker but you don’t use a first round pick on that. Especially an older rookie. He’s really athletic and has speed and good hands, but he’s primarily a blocker in an offense that doesn’t feature him as a receiving TE.

Marquise Brown was consistently dealing with injury, and hopefully that isn’t going to be the story with him. If that is a concern for EDC I don’t know, but it is a gamble to pencil in Hollywood as 80-100 catches next season. Can Roman be creative with him and make him a Tyreek Hill type is a question. He should be used as an extension of the run game as well as deep threat. Move him all over the field. I really hope he’s going to be healthy and durable, and used creatively. He could be a deadly weapon.

Snead could be doing more as well he was the leading receiver last season. More value now as a blocker, but he can still get a few more targets. They can probably do better than Seth Roberts though, preferably a veteran good intermediate route runner with a big body who can pick up first downs, and doesn’t mind blocking. If AJ Green could be had on a modest one year prove it deal, he’d be perfect on the cheap. If they can’t find that guy, as suggested elsewhere you move Hurst out there, or at least try it out.

[The Excellector]

Not trying to intentionally stir the pot, but it’s probably not blasphemy to suggest that LJ probably makes Roman look smarter than he really is. In the playoff game the passing offense looked extremely basic at times. At one point during the season they were feeding the ball to Boyle more than Hurst. Hurst is a good blocker but you don’t use a first round pick on that. Especially an older rookie. He’s really athletic and has speed and good hands, but he’s primarily a blocker in an offense that doesn’t feature him as a receiving TE.

Marquise Brown was consistently dealing with injury, and hopefully that isn’t going to be the story with him. If that is a concern for EDC I don’t know, but it is a gamble to pencil in Hollywood as 80-100 catches next season. Can Roman be creative with him and make him a Tyreek Hill type is a question. He should be used as an extension of the run game as well as deep threat. Move him all over the field. I really hope he’s going to be healthy and durable, and used creatively. He could be a deadly weapon.

Snead could be doing more as well he was the leading receiver last season. More value now as a blocker, but he can still get a few more targets. They can probably do better than Seth Roberts though, preferably a veteran good intermediate route runner with a big body who can pick up first downs, and doesn’t mind blocking. If AJ Green could be had on a modest one year prove it deal, he’d be perfect on the cheap. If they can’t find that guy, as suggested elsewhere you move Hurst out there, or at least try it out.

Well, that opinion is why I've caught so much heat on this board. Not only before the season and during the season, but after that playoff game. Greg Roman's route concepts are basic. The reason guys are getting open with them is, as you implied, Lamar Jackson is drawing extra attention from defenders. While I do not like Lamar running as much as he does, I must admit (I have in the past) that defenders are terrified of his running. Not just his sheer speed, but his agility and quickness. If you go back and watch Ravens highlights, there are countless plays where defenders are initially in good position to either make the stop or at least do their originally intended job. Jackson's presence makes them nervous and it doesn't take, but a split second for them to suddenly be out of position as a result.

Tennessee didn't take the cheese. They stuck to their assignment and suddenly, you didn't see a plethora of open guys (Not saying there wasn't a single play where a WR got schemed open). One reason why I think that Hurst was open the most was, because Jackson has the tendency to focus in on Brown and Andrews. The route concepts are vanilla and it's not that difficult to figure out the read progressions. So, you'll get wannabes on youtube trying to claim that Boykin was wide open on a deep post and Lamar missed him. When, in reality, that was his first read and all he saw was the movement of the Safety, which he thought he read correctly and moved on to the next progression and by the time he came back to Boykin he wouldn't have been able to get off a clean throw. From there, he throws to the sideline instead where they had a very good idea of the routes that would be coming. And Hurst looks open, because the Titans know Jackson isn't going to look Hurst's way as much as Brown and Andrews. These tendencies show up on tape. So he may look open, but he may be first in the read progression where the Titans disguise the coverage to make Lamar get off of him quickly or he's last in the read progression, because they know he'll never get to him.

I've also caught heat, because I do emphasize volume to a degree, because when you only throw 440 times, there's really not much for a defense to prepare for in this particular passing offense. You aren't going to suddenly get into a playoff game and start running different route concepts. Andrews runs a quick out where he basically boxes out his guy, and a couple of routes up the seam. Brown runs a crosser, a comeback, a go, a quick slant. So, while it may be difficult for us posters, that's not difficult for a defender to figure out which is coming (Not saying they'll guess right every time) based on the defense they line up in, because the tape shows how this offense throws against certain defenses. The passing offense goes, because people become fixated on the run, to the point of losing discipline. Tennessee won up front, stacked the box, flooded the middle and played single up on the outside, while mixing in some man coverage across the board here and there and that was just to keep Jackson guessing. They did that, without becoming over-fixated on the run and abandoning their assignment.

My personal opinion is that Greg Roman is a good OC, if this is the offense you want to run. However, that Lamar makes him great. Also however, that without the run being dominant and driving defenses crazy, he is not and has not shown himself to be capable of consistently (Since Jim will show up with one example as if to prove me wrong when he knows what I mean) devising a passing scheme that can stand on its own. So, for me, if we had a QB who could run like Lamar, but still threw the way that Lamar threw his rookie season and that's what I felt his ceiling was as a passer, then by all means keep Roman, run the guy into the ground and go draft another one in 4-5 years if the first one lasts that long. Lamar Jackson has far greater potential as a passer, than that, and this is not the offense that's going to see him reach his ceiling as a passer. In order for him to truly reach his ceiling as a passer, he's going to have to learn how to throw his way out of issues. Throw his way back into games. Everything can't be, 'We struggling a bit passing, so instead of changing something up with it, we'll just ratchet up his carries, for the next ten years'. Yes, to settle him on occasion, if it's clear that he's pressing, or if it's clear that the defense is giving it to you to run Ingram or Edwards. However, you can also settle him down by giving him easier throws or warming him up if he starts cold. You do not take a QB with this much passing potential and keep him in such a run-oriented offense. Yes, the first year or two, I get it. However, this offense is all that Roman has shown he can do. Eventually, you're going to have to evolve and I personally do not believe he's the guy for that.

I mean, he emptied the backfield to try and create space and give Tennessee a different look, but with much of the same passing concepts. They wouldn't take the cheese in the run. So, he tried to empty the backfield and go spread to give him something to get nervous about, but they weren't fooled at all.

This isn't the first time we've seen this. If the lights don't go out in that Super Bowl, Roman's offense might still have three points. They tried to run over the Ravens and out-muscle them. They couldn't. They had to pass and he couldn't scheme it for them.

[seraph]

He gets eaten alive by the 2000 Tennessee defense. Different era, different protection rules. No way does he survive a full season in the old AFC Central.

Teams can win with weak receiving cores but you realize that Super Bowl teams lucked out by playing the right matchups where their weakness can't be exposed. Having more good pass catchers can help them beat strong pass defenses. It's true that you don't need the best receivers to win but not having more dependable pass catchers in other positions leaves teams weaker in certain matchups.

That being said this current group of receivers wouldn't do well against the 2000 Titans either.

[GreatWhiteNorthRaven]

I'm pretty sure that's why they brought Culley in though. He is the passing game coordinator, and yes that does matter.

We all know Marty was using Roman's run scheme last year. It's a very similar setup.

So I actually think Harbaugh did the smart thing to address the weakness Roman has shown. You have seen shades of Culley's experience under Reid in this passing game.

Again, the question is can it evolve moving forward.

And to be clear, you catch heat because you write in conclusions. You'll call that BS, but it's the truth. That's why I frequently call you on your BS.