Impeachment notes & tidbits

[Greg]

It was a quid pro quo. I said that. It's not the same thing Trump did. At all.

For starters, the legislation that authorized the loan guarantees at issue when Biden made his demand of Poroshenko authorized Obama to do that. Secondly, Biden was doing what Obama had authorized him to do. Third, the policy was arrived at by a multi-agency consensus in consultation with Congress, and with the agreement of other stakeholders like the IMF, the EU, and anti-corruption folks in Ukraine. Obama and Biden did it openly. They didn't try to hide it. They didn't lie about it. Those involved knew up front what was going on and why.

Trump, in contrast, hid what he was doing. He used Giuliani as a backdoor and tasked Sondland outside his writ to circumvent the official diplomatic apparatus in Ukraine. He didn't let the State Dep't or the Embassy in Ukraine know what he was doing. They weren't aware that Trump was behind Sondland's "drug deal" as Bolton called it. He had the summary of his phone call locked away on a super secret computer and didn't deliver the usual read-out to those in the Administration with a portfolio involving Ukraine, which meant they were unaware of what was going on. When the hold on the aid was ordered no reason was given for it. When OMB staffer Mark Shandy made his concerns about its legality known, since there was no reason given for it, they took it away from him and made the unusual decision to give it to a political appointee in the OMB. Appropriations are usually handled by career staff because they have the experience. That political appointee was Duffy, and when news of the whisteblower first became known he sent out emails attempting to blame DOD for the delay in the aid getting paid. Apparently even he didn't know why it was being held, though it defies reason that he didn't know it was held because Trump had ordered it. That didn't work, so first they came up with the excuse that Trump was worried other European countries weren't paying enough. Then it was "corruption," though he didn't mention corruption in either conversation with Zelensky and the only things he actually did mention were the unfounded claims against the Bidens and the completely insane gibberish he apparently believes about Crowdstrike.

You people are just willfully ignorant. You stay in a bubble and refuse to see reality.

It sounds like a ton of excuse-making.

But then we come back to the main point, the Ukranian president says it never happened. You would think the person being supposedly pressured would know it.

And of course, we still have US officials getting a foreign government employee fired for their own personal reasons. But it's okay because, well, he's a Democrat.

[Greg]

The FBI did not attempt to alter an election. Parts of it did. The New York Field Office, for example, had at least some anti-Clinton agents who had been leaking information (some of it false) to Giuliani and the rightwing press.

Have you read the DOJ OIG report on the Midyear Exam?

For that matter, did you read the DOJ OIG report on Crossfire Hurricane? Because both of those reports thoroughly debunk the Trumpist conspiracy theory that the FBI was out to get him.

LOL, so the FBI bugging the Trump campaign was to hurt Hillary!

Dude, Occam's Razor.

[bacchys]

It sounds like a ton of excuse-making.

But then we come back to the main point, the Ukranian president says it never happened. You would think the person being supposedly pressured would know it.

And of course, we still have US officials getting a foreign government employee fired for their own personal reasons. But it's okay because, well, he's a Democrat.

Zelensky hasn't said it didn't happen. He says he didn't feel pressured.

Nor is that "excuse-making." It's the facts.

There's nothing wrong with our government having an anti-corruption policy towards Ukraine.

[bacchys]

LOL, so the FBI bugging the Trump campaign was to hurt Hillary!

Dude, Occam's Razor.

LOL! The FBI didn't but Trump's campaign.

Dude, quit being so brainwashed. Buy a clue. Read the DOJ OIG report on Crossfire Hurrcane instead of believing Glenn Beck, Alex Jones, or whatever moron you've been letting lie to you.

[boller4president]

Not impressed with the defense lawyers of Trump. They have sort of allowed the democrats to claim things without proving them when they don't have the evidence to show it.

They should be playing non-stop clips of them making huge leaps during the Russian investigation and say to the public and the senate that is isn't the first time they claimed irrefutable proof of something that never happened.

[NCRAVEN]

LOL! The FBI didn't but Trump's campaign.

Dude, quit being so brainwashed. Buy a clue. Read the DOJ OIG report on Crossfire Hurrcane instead of believing Glenn Beck, Alex Jones, or whatever moron you've been letting lie to you.

Bug aka surveillance

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.was...outputType=amp

[wickedsolo]

The FBI did not attempt to alter an election. Parts of it did. The New York Field Office, for example, had at least some anti-Clinton agents who had been leaking information (some of it false) to Giuliani and the rightwing press.

Have you read the DOJ OIG report on the Midyear Exam?

For that matter, did you read the DOJ OIG report on Crossfire Hurricane? Because both of those reports thoroughly debunk the Trumpist conspiracy theory that the FBI was out to get him.

Senior members of the FBI and IC knowingly used false information (provided to them by an op-o research firm contracted by the DNC) to initiate FISA warrants and, in some cases, altered information on FISA warrant applications.

Those actions were taken to get FISA warrants to surveil USA citizens that happened to be associated with the Trump campaign and/or incoming administration.

That isn’t an opinion. That happened.

So...how is that not trying to fuck with an election in one candidate’s favor?


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[NCRAVEN]

Senior members of the FBI and IC knowingly used false information (provided to them by an op-o research firm contracted by the DNC) to initiate FISA warrants and, in some cases, altered information on FISA warrant applications.

Those actions were taken to get FISA warrants to surveil USA citizens that happened to be associated with the Trump campaign and/or incoming administration.

That isn’t an opinion. That happened.

So...how is that not trying to fuck with an election in one candidate’s favor?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Alex Jones.... is that you?

[bacchys]

Senior members of the FBI and IC knowingly used false information (provided to them by an op-o research firm contracted by the DNC) to initiate FISA warrants and, in some cases, altered information on FISA warrant applications.

Those actions were taken to get FISA warrants to surveil USA citizens that happened to be associated with the Trump campaign and/or incoming administration.

That isn’t an opinion. That happened.

So...how is that not trying to fuck with an election in one candidate’s favor?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That's false. You've misrepresented the facts. It's clear you didn't read the DOJ OIG report on Crossfire Hurricane. Page was no longer with the campaign when the warrant issued and he wasn't throughout the extensions in any way associated with Trump. He's the only individual on which a warrant was sought, so why you're using the plural is strange.

Meanwhile, Comey did fuck with Clinton's campaign when he sent a letter to Congress telling them Midyear Exam was re-opened 11 days before the election. 538 found that impacted the election. The DOJ OIG report faulted Comey for that, noting it violated FBI policy and practice. Do you want to argue Comey was trying to throw the election to Trump? Or are you going to take his word on why he did it?

[bacchys]

Bug aka surveillance

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.was...outputType=amp

Carter Page wasn't part of the campaign when the FBI sought the warrant. He'd left the campaign a month earlier. He never rejoined the campaign.

So surveilling Page wasn't surveilling the campaign.

[wickedsolo]

That's false. You've misrepresented the facts. It's clear you didn't read the DOJ OIG report on Crossfire Hurricane. Page was no longer with the campaign when the warrant issued and he wasn't throughout the extensions in any way associated with Trump. He's the only individual on which a warrant was sought, so why you're using the plural is strange.

Meanwhile, Comey did fuck with Clinton's campaign when he sent a letter to Congress telling them Midyear Exam was re-opened 11 days before the election. 538 found that impacted the election. The DOJ OIG report faulted Comey for that, noting it violated FBI policy and practice. Do you want to argue Comey was trying to throw the election to Trump? Or are you going to take his word on why he did it?

Comey was a huge problem within the FBI. Massive ego. Always had to be right.

He definitely impacted Clinton's campaign with mishandling the email server investigation. He made it about him. I think that was his goal.

Re Carter Page - I am not misrepresenting anything. Was Carter Page associated with Trump's campaign? Yes. He was. Also, you only noting Carter Page in this clearly says to me that you have absolutely zero understanding about how FISA surveillance works in the IC and DOJ.

Did senior members of the FBI and IC leverage false and misleading information to initiate FISA warrant applications? Yes. They did.

Did senior members of the FBI, IC, and DOJ manipulate information they used in FISA warrant applications? Yes. They did.

Everything in Horrowitz's IG report says so.

[wickedsolo]

Carter Page wasn't part of the campaign when the FBI sought the warrant. He'd left the campaign a month earlier. He never rejoined the campaign.

So surveilling Page wasn't surveilling the campaign.

When you use FISA to monitor someone's email, phone, etc; you have the ability to walk back those communication records several months and you are also able to look at who the person has been communicating with and who they've communicated with. So, in reality, using FISA against one person can really be (at a minimum) leveraged against 3 people. Then, if PC is found against one of those other people, it's not a huge deal to amend the original FISA application to include new people.