RPO/Roughing the passer

[Dirt1]

Hence my mention of the rules getting tricky. If Lamar hands off and continues the fake to make it appear he still has the ball then he could be tackled hard, and below the knee, if the DE is right there ready to tackle whether or not he has the ball still.

If he were to pull up as if he's going to pass, statue of liberty style, the you basically can't hit him.

But if he takes a couple of steps after then hand off then he has the same protection. Anyone who hits him at that point would be in violation of section e of the rule.

This is what the Steelers were guilty of violating.

If he's within a step of the meshpoint, you can hit him whether he has the ball or not (and it can be a hard hit or below the knee if this occurs down the line.)

If he's beyond that step you can't hit him if he's handed off; if he still has it clearly you can tackle/sack him. If he hasn't established a throwing motion then again, it can be a hard hit or below the knee if this occurs down the line.

Basically those who are saying you should just tee off on the quarterback after he hands off are wrong.

Then I had misunderstood you before. I agree with what you have written here. James Harrison was saying that defenders could hit Lamar even after he had taken a couple of steps after handing the ball off. The Steelers should have been called for several more roughing the passer penalties in that week 17 game due to their late hits on RG3.

[Shas]

Yeah, even with triple options in college where they try to punish the quarterback, it's schemed so the first guy goes right at the QB, forcing him to commit to the pitch right before they slam him down--and they have someone else responsible for the pitch man. No where am I aware of a situation where a QB throws, hands off, or pitches and then defenders can pound him well after the ball is gone...except if when he returns back into the play as a blocker or pass catcher.

[BustOfPallas]

Yeah, even with triple options in college where they try to punish the quarterback, it's schemed so the first guy goes right at the QB, forcing him to commit to the pitch right before they slam him down--and they have someone else responsible for the pitch man. No where am I aware of a situation where a QB throws, hands off, or pitches and then defenders can pound him well after the ball is gone...except if when he returns back into the play as a blocker or pass catcher.

Lamar usually dramatically changes course and often ends up on the ground on those pitches. He's so in control i doubt the defender on the play could hit him and if they did it would probably be an unnecessary roughness penalty

[Shas]

Yeah. James Harrison is just plain wrong.

In the R-O you can hit him all you want (can) if he has the ball...but if he hands off, unless you're right there, you can't cheap shot him after the fact. And you can be damn well sure Harbaugh sent Week 17 tape to the league and asked officials to look for this.

The RPO doesn't change much, and the Ravens don't really run it so it's moot.

If your plan is to get shots on him, you have to catch him with the ball...or hope the officials ignore the rules.

[Corey]

I'm not sure why teams don't hit the QB more on those RPO plays. Pretty sure that's what Suggs did on every play in the Super Bowl on Kap. I don't see what's dirty about it if the QB is a real threat to run and keeps his hands on the ball while in the RB's stomach until the very last second. If I were Dean Pees I'd assume Lamar has it and hit him every play and let my D-line worry about Ingram and Edwards. But then again if it were that easy teams would be doing it. Lamar has to be doing something different than what RG3 did.

Harbaugh also knows that was the strategy against Kap in that Superbowl. I can't imagine, he'd go into the game unprepared for Pees to pull out a strategy, he himself used to win the Superbowl.

[LittleG]

I've heard some of the talking heads mention this tactic for the past 8 weeks or so.
Let's take this discussion a step further.
What could the Ravens do, specifically, to hurt teams who try this tactic? I mean, besides "Lamar juke the DE"
Obviously defenses aren't helping themselves by taking that DE out of the play whenever Lamar hands it off, but realistically he's already out of the play anyway if he waits to see where the ball goes.
What could the Ravens do schematically to hurt a team that is willfully vacating the edge on that side?

Just run the ball through the gap where the DE was. Simple, easy to execute, should be 3+ yards until contact for the RB. OR you can run a screen pass over behind the rushing DE. Second option is more risky, first option is better.

[PTORaven]

what is confusing me about the RtP rule is that the NFL rulebook uses the word "pass" more broadly than we use it. when we say "pass" we usually think "throw." but the rulebook definition of pass includes hand-offs. so it seems to me like the QB is a "passer" or in a "passing posture" for normal handoffs. here's the definition from the rulebook: SECTION 22 - PASS
ARTICLE 1. PASS
A pass is the movement caused by a player intentionally handing, throwing, shoveling (shovel pass), or pushing (push pass) the ball (3-25-2). Such a movement is a pass even if the ball does not leave his hand or hands, provided a teammate takes it (hand-to-hand pass).

[HbgPARavenfan]

The talking heads keep bringing up defending Lamar by having someone hit him every single play fake. We haven't really seen it too much this year except for Week 17 with RG3. It seemed that a handful of hits on RG3 were borderline dirty/personal fouls but no flags.

I know Lamar is far more dynamic/running threat, which seems to neuter edge rushers aggression. I have to believe the Raven FO has contacted the league about the egregious late hits on RG3. I find it hard to believe the league would want to see the MVP taking big hits several seconds after its clear the RB has the ball. If that hit where Dupree drilled RG3 in the back well after the handoff didn't drawl a flag, what will?

Do you see this as a issue in the post-season where the refs seem to throw less flags? Thoughts?

In high school and low level college ball we could hit the qb and rarely get called. I believe they will protect NFL qbs more. It is a valid strategy tho. He could be a runner and should be treated as such imo on plays of that nature

[Shas]

Apologies for drilling this topic into the ground, but after going back to read the rulebook one more time, I think I'm wrong.

We all know you can't hit a quarterback after the ball is released and after taking more than a step. But that one step rule applies only to, "A passer who is standing still or fading backward after the ball has left his hand is obviously out of the play..."

So, a quarterback who hands off to the tailback on a dive and then proceeds to move down the line is clearly not out of the play, standing or backpeddling. So you can hit him, even after a step.

To avoid a hit like this would have to outrun the tackle, as if he has the ball, or give himself up (stand or slide).

[Meanie Bigjae]

I think all of this is moot, due to the fact that Lamar protects himself regardless of the rules. He has been good at taking himself out of the play and protecting himself.

[Shas]

I think all of this is moot, due to the fact that Lamar protects himself regardless of the rules. He has been good at taking himself out of the play and protecting himself.

I think what has been suggested, however, is that defenses could commit a player to hit the quarter back no matter what, giving him a read to hand off on the dive, but assigning the DE to go hit him no matter what. Its sort of like a blitz on the RO That would make it harder of him to elude hits.

[Mmcclend]

Clemson used this tactic against Lamar when he was at Louisville but they were just diving straight for his knees. Dirty as hell.