Lamar Jackson & Jalen Hurts

[lobachevsky]

2 QBs at the same time?

This is something that I have been talking about a long time. I've been talking about it for years before the Ravens got Lamar Jackson and I raced to the Ravens boards after Lamar ran 26 times.

And you were completely wrong then, and you're completely wrong now.

Yes, I'm in favor of 2 running QBs at the same time. Yes, I believe that the Ravens should have 2 QBs on the field. Yes, that's what the Heisman package is.

You're wrong. You're wrong. You're right but it's a bullshit "package."

No, it's not really a bold idea by that guy, because I've been talking about it for years and so have others, theoretically.

And you've all been wrong, because it's a deeply stupid notion.

Essentially you want to replace a RB large enough, strong enough & fast enough to threaten to break an interior run for big yardage, with a QB2 who's not as big, not as strong, might be as fast, who isn't the same threat. A QB can fake a handoff to an authentic RB & the defenders have to account for the possibility it might not be a fake, which buys the QB a precious 0.5-0.7 seconds to read the field & decide where to go with the ball. Try the same with that second QB & they'll laugh at him as they roar past to pound QB1 into the turf.

Did you pay any attention to the one "Heisman package" play they ran? It was a joke. Lamar could arguably have gotten more yards if he'd kept the ball instead of pitching it. I guess it was a feel-good moment to get RG3 involved but that's about it.

The moral of the story is that by putting another slightly-built scatback/QB on the field you diminish the power of the offense. Only one player at a time can carry the ball - why would you want to give it to the second-best runner in the backfield? Or have the third- or fourth-best blocker on your backfield roster trying (& likely failing) to run interference for the best runner?

If you want to put another "running quarterback" on the field he'd need to be about Tebow's size - essentially a TE/FB who can on occasion throw, but other times can legitimately run between the tackles, catch screens & flares out of thee backfield, and most of all block like a TE/FB. Does that player exist? Maybe. Good luck finding one of them who's willing to do the scut work & play second fiddle to the guy the ball's snapped to. He'll want the snap, & sooner or later he'll find a team that wants him to take it.

[edromeo]

I don't know. If Lamar was head and shoulders faster and more athletic than any other QB out there, he wouldve run at the combine. He didn't. If he had run at the combine in the 4.3s, he would've been a top 10 pick. He didn't, and he was picked at 32.

We can't say what "would" have happened. I don't think Lamar running a 4.3 at the combine wouldn't have made 1 iota of a difference. Every NFL team/scout already know he's fast. Lamar draft position wasn't held back by a 40 time.

Lamar is a great athlete.....but I don't think that's what sets him apart as a runner. Lamar has great vision and ability to make defenders miss. For example, I would wager that pure athletic testing Griffin would beat Lamar. But, as a runner Lamar takes the cake by far.

The specific thing about Jalen Hurts is that he's supposedly a "power runner" and he weighs 218 pounds. That doesn't sound like something that will work top of the line in the NFL. draftscout .com is guessing that he runs a 4.59 40. They have 6010 218 and 4.59 for Hurts.

I don't think Hurts is as fast as Lamar or Griffin but I think he's a better runner then Griffin. I wouldn't describe Hurts as a "power runner" but he's a good runner. Hurts has 'make you miss' ability that I think is critical:

[alien bird]

I don't know. If Lamar was head and shoulders faster and more athletic than any other QB out there, he wouldve run at the combine.

That's an incorrect assumption and not the reason Lamar Jackson did not run at the combine. The reason he didn't run at the combine is because he was head and shoulders faster than any other QB out there and felt that several GMs would want to draft him and all that speed and turn him into a WR. A simple Google search would tell you that was the case. Lamar Jackson said it himself.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/06/nfl...scout-receiver

[boller4president]

I did read that article yesterday. While it would be a cool concept, the Ravens already have what they need on the roster to run something like that in RG3 and McSorley. A concept like this would most likely be used by a team with a deficiency at QB, but we do not have a deficiency at QB. Lamar has all of the mental tools to run a modern passing NFL offense to go along with all of his athleticism.

*Edit: And I also see his draft projection all over the place. He goes all the way from late round 1, dropping all the way to the 5th round.

If he drops to the 5th he's worth a look just as a developmental guy. I haven't been impressed with RGIII this year and McSorely is expendable.

So why not? A lot will depend on how his combine goes there is fast and there is Lamar Jackson and there is everyone else. Hurt to me doesn't have game changing speed he is more college fast then anything he was rumored to run a 4.5 at Bama which is fast but not the kind of athlete that gets you to the 1st round. I'll also say just watching RGIII you can see the difference people have this idea that you can throw any athlete in at QB in the system we run with Lamar and they will be sucessful.

Not the case. Lamar makes the system work not the other way around.

[alien bird]

Nothing against Hurts, but why is anybody taking seriously a strategy devised by the twice-fired Vice President of Football Operations for the Miami Dolphins and general manager for the New York Jets ? What in the history of those teams during his tenure suggests he has any idea how to evaluate personnel, or build a team or offense?

Spot on. The Ravens might as well listen to Vinnie Cerato.

[Unibomber]

Nah. The pick it would take to select him would be better served elsewhere. As good as the team is this year, there will be holes to fill.

[John Reglarperson]

That's an incorrect assumption and not the reason Lamar Jackson did not run at the combine. The reason he didn't run at the combine is because he was head and shoulders faster than any other QB out there and felt that several GMs would want to draft him and all that speed and turn him into a WR. A simple Google search would tell you that was the case. Lamar Jackson said it himself.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/2018/06/nfl...scout-receiver

Do you actually think that I hadn't heard that before?

Or course I heard it.

I just didn't believe it at all when I heard it.

I pay very close attention to all the running QBs. When someone isn't as fast as people think he is, it might be in his best interest not to prove exactly how fast he is. If he was as fast as people think - 4.3 something - he would have ran that 4.3 at the combine, and he would've been drafted in the top 10.

Running QBs don't get drafted in the top 10 to change positions. If they're drafted in the top 10, it's to play QB. If Lamar actually could run 4.3 something, he lost Millions in the short run by not running.

[edromeo]

Do you actually think that I hadn't heard that before?

Or course I heard it.

I just didn't believe it at all when I heard it.

I pay very close attention to all the running QBs. When someone isn't as fast as people think he is, it might be in his best interest not to prove exactly how fast he is. If he was as fast as people think - 4.3 something - he would have ran that 4.3 at the combine, and he would've been drafted in the top 10.

Running QBs don't get drafted in the top 10 to change positions. If they're drafted in the top 10, it's to play QB. If Lamar actually could run 4.3 something, he lost Millions in the short run by not running.

Subjunctive.

Questions:
Do you think Lamar is fast?

Do you think he’s 4.5 or faster?

Do you think Lamar’s timed speed impacts his actual on the field play?

Do you think NFL scouting departments can’t accurately assess speed without the combine?

[Craven_Raven]

Do you actually think that I hadn't heard that before?

Or course I heard it.

I just didn't believe it at all when I heard it.

I pay very close attention to all the running QBs. When someone isn't as fast as people think he is, it might be in his best interest not to prove exactly how fast he is. If he was as fast as people think - 4.3 something - he would have ran that 4.3 at the combine, and he would've been drafted in the top 10.

Running QBs don't get drafted in the top 10 to change positions. If they're drafted in the top 10, it's to play QB. If Lamar actually could run 4.3 something, he lost Millions in the short run by not running.

You have some of the most cringe inducing tales I’ve ever read on a message board. Lamar is one of the fastest players in the nfl according to Next Gen Stats. I’m not sure what kind of trip you’re on but it’s both revisionist and delusional.

[Davesta]

Do you actually think that I hadn't heard that before?

Or course I heard it.

I just didn't believe it at all when I heard it.

I pay very close attention to all the running QBs. When someone isn't as fast as people think he is, it might be in his best interest not to prove exactly how fast he is. If he was as fast as people think - 4.3 something - he would have ran that 4.3 at the combine, and he would've been drafted in the top 10.

Running QBs don't get drafted in the top 10 to change positions. If they're drafted in the top 10, it's to play QB. If Lamar actually could run 4.3 something, he lost Millions in the short run by not running.

Well he did timed 4.34 at Louisville testing event back in 2017. Take that for what you will.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BRZgDhWh...=1r0d03qp2cwsn

[John Reglarperson]

If he drops to the 5th he's worth a look just as a developmental guy. I haven't been impressed with RGIII this year and McSorely is expendable.

So why not? A lot will depend on how his combine goes there is fast and there is Lamar Jackson and there is everyone else. Hurt to me doesn't have game changing speed he is more college fast then anything he was rumored to run a 4.5 at Bama which is fast but not the kind of athlete that gets you to the 1st round. I'll also say just watching RGIII you can see the difference people have this idea that you can throw any athlete in at QB in the system we run with Lamar and they will be sucessful.

Not the case. Lamar makes the system work not the other way around.

All of these running QBs are different. draftscout .com thinks Hurts runs 4.59. Hurts does have a higher passer rating in college than Lamar, Lamar ran for more yards, had a higher yards per carry. I'd assume that Lamar is faster, I'd definitely think that Lamar runs a better 40 than 4.59. But we really don't know what Lamar's 40 time and 10 split and 3 cone etc are, so, we really can't say that Lamar is fastest.

I'd argue that the Ravens should spend a pick, probably a day 3 pick, on the best running QB - at running - in the draft. And it's hard to argue that Malcolm Perry isn't the best running QB this year, with the data that's available. He's at 1804 rushing yards, with 1 game to go, and a really good chance that he breaks the record of 1920 in the bowl game. We don't know Perry's 40 time, but we know that he's got more rushing yards this year than Lamar got in a year, or what Hurts will run this year. So, I'd go with Perry in the 6th. Perry also has a quite high passer rating of 181 this year. He's a smaller Taysom Hill, he's a backup QB, on the roster as a QB, gets trained as a QB, but when he's on the field, he's a swiss army knife, often as slotback, also returning kicks, other special teams. He's an offensive weapon who can help the Ravens. That's how I'd go. Navy, Annapolis, not far from Baltimore. Also would consider Khalil Tate, Arizona, but he might be a natural for the Cardinals and Kyler Murray.

Lets see how RGIII does on Sunday. He did have 815 yards rushing in his rookie season, with a long run of 76 and a yards per carry of 6.8. Also consider that RGIII was rarely in the game this year with any need at all to score points. He was in because the Ravens had basically won the game, and Lamar was out because he won the game for the Ravens.

Running QBs are intrinsically better than non running QBs, and if you dial up the number of QB runs, you get wins. I'd argue that it could be more the system than Lamar, but both fit extremely well together and both are running on all cylinders, full blast. No QB has ever run more often than Lamar, and I don't know if any QB has started his career with a better record than 19-3, I would guess not.

[edromeo]

Well he did timed 4.34 at Louisville testing event back in 2017. Take that for what you will.

https://www.instagram.com/p/BRZgDhWh...=1r0d03qp2cwsn

Thanks.

And for those that view college timing day numbers as inflated .......There’s also this:
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=h79kC0PP0LA

For me Lamar’s 40 time is purely academic. Lamar, like any other player, is as fast as he plays. The timed speed doesn’t matter to me.
Whether or not he’s a 4.3 or 4.4 *shrugs* doesn’t matter. He was fast at Louisville and every scout new it.