Cleveland Forum Discussing Lamar Jackson

[RVAensfan]

The only major sports team whose name is a literary reference, yeah?

Not sure how major they are but 2 Scottish (round ball) football teams Heart of Midlothian and Queen of the South, both referencing their geographical locations, are named after Walter Scott novels. He was huge in the 19th C. when the teams were being formed.

Also a somewhat bigger soccer club in London, Tottenham Hotspur. "Hotspur" is the name of a historical person, but one who became famous through being depicted as a character by Shakespeare.

[lobachevsky]

And in a curious parallel, the Baltimore Orioles also changed their name when they came from St. Louis - also the Browns. In that case I believe they wanted to avoid the stigma from the name.

Ornithologists then and now** recognize the Baltimore oriole (Icterus galbula) as one of the most colorful & distinctive birds of North America. It has been the MD state bird since 1947.

Also, it didn't hurt that there were teams in the American Association and National and American Leagues named "Baltimore Orioles" during most of the 1882-1902 interval:***

The original Orioles (1882-1899) were one of the most storied teams in the history of the game. Managed by Ned Hanlon, they won NL pennants in 1894, 1895 and 1896, and sported some of the most colorful players in history including John McGraw, Wee Willie Keeler, Hughie Jennings, Joe Kelley, Wilbert Robinson, and Dan Brouthers.

IOW, all kinds of good reasons for the Browns to change their name (& plumage) to reflect their new home.

Draw your own conclusions.......😄

I just did, thanky kindly.

** Fun fact #1, from Wiki: "Observations of interbreeding between the Baltimore oriole and the western Bullock's oriole, Icterus bullockii, led to both being classified as a single species, called the northern oriole, from 1973 to 1995. Research by James Rising, a professor of zoology at the University of Toronto, and others showed that the two birds actually did not interbreed significantly." Hence "then & now."

*** Fun fact #2: The 1901-02 Orioles, a Major League Baseball team and charter member of the American League, are still in existence! They migrated to New York and became the Highlanders or Americans, and since 1913, the New York Yankees. As one Charles Dillon Stengel famously said, You could look it up.

[Wolfman]

Thanks for the Louis correction. I referred to tight end Ed Dickson as Ed Dixon for an entire season before getting it right.

Recall that there were two rounds of Ravens nicknames, one during the '95 expansion and one when the Browns arrived.

The results of the Sun poll were: 21,108 for Ravens, 5,597 for Americans and 5,583 selected Marauders. Marauders was also derived from the Martin aircraft plant in Baltimore, it was the nickname of the B-26 that they produced there. That's the plane you see with the glass bubbles protruding from the nose and fuselage where gunman sat (and were sitting targets). It was nicknamed the Widowmaker because it required landing at very high speeds (on short runways) or it would stall and crash. I do recall David Modell preferring Americans.

For the earlier expansion bid, Baltimore had multiple ownership groups they presented to the league, each with different nicknames in mind.

Boogie Weinglass favored the Bombers, as you point out--it's for the same B-26--and a little more in your face than 'Marauders." He had filed a trademark for Bombers (which, by the way, was also on the list for the Memphis group, along with Hound Dogs and Showboats.) He also trademarked "Ravens" but ultimately dropped that idea because he thought there were already too many bird names in the NFL. I worked briefly for the ad agency that designed the Bomber logo.

Another, 'by the way': Weinglass was not bidding alone. Some of his minority partners included Barry Levinson, Ex-Colt Joe Washington and Peter G. Angelos. (Weinglass was part owner of the O's and would have divested shares).

The second ownership group was Malcom Glazer, the same guy who would go on to own the Tampa Bay franchise. He was pushing for "Cobras" as the team name.

The league didn't like either name. They didn't like the war connotation of Bomber. They had done their own research and pushed the name "Rhinos" on both groups, forcing them to agree that if Baltimore was chosen, it would be Rhinos regardless of which owner group they picked.

As it turns out, not only did they not like his proposed team name, NFL owners didn't like Boogie, either, seeing him as a loose cannon but weren't sold on Glazer either. The expansion process was a bit of a mess, with lawsuits in St. Louis; Memphis threatened to drop out and Jacksonville did drop out only to have Tagliabue talk them back in. The NFL awarded Charlotte a team but delayed the second announcement to give cities time to address the issues.

For Baltimore that meant dumping Glazer and Weinglass. Baltimore scurried to find someone with NFL ties. They had lost a potential bidder in Bob Tisch, who pulled out early in the process to instead buy a piece of the Giants. Another early group that faded was headed by Ed Hale, who had Bart Starr on board as a partner.

John Moag and Governor Schaffer lured Al Lerner to make a last minute bid, and put their weight behind him. Lerner, who made his money in Cleveland and Maryland, owned a 5% stake in the Browns. The expectation was that Lerner and Modell, who was on the expansion committee, would lobby fellow owners to sway votes Baltimore's way. Strangely, they never made an effort and Modell didn't even vote for Baltimore. Commissioner Tagliabue--a Redskins ticket holder and later earning the nickname "The Sun King" for favoring Jacksonville--worked against Baltimore behind the scenes on behalf of owner Jack Kent Cooke.

I've always maintained that Modell--out of financial desperation, cooked up a scheme to grab Baltimore's financial deal for himself, allowing Lerner to take over a new team in Cleveland with league money pumped in. Recall newspaper reports at the time how Schaffer was floored, in tears, at the announcement of Jacksonville, but Lerner quickly and quietly slipped out the back, unfazed by the news.

In the end, everyone involved in expansion "won" in one way or another. Baltimore got the Browns 3 years later. Cleveland got a new team stadium 3 years after that. Tennessee got the Oilers, albeit in Nashville (because of FedEx money), not Memphis, and St. Louis got the Rams from LA. I also believe the NFL used expansion to lure a lot of civic money into the league, paying fees and building new stadiums.

Thanks for pointing out Modell not voting for the expansion franchise in Baltimore. I have read that his vote was the deciding factor in Baltimore not getting the franchise. I have often wondered if maybe he already had his move planned and that's why he voted against Baltimore. As you said...it worked out, and it's a long time ago. Nobody really cares anymore.

[JimZipCode]

Nobody really cares anymore.

Now the Colts move to Indy on the other hand.....

[mmi16]

Now the Colts move to Indy on the other hand.....

I had no real problem with drinking Irsay taking the team to Indy, business is business - drunk or sober.

Taking the team's history is another thing entirely.

[Iamjacks]

Lol!

"I know that was a mistype but so true.

Kittens = Kitchens"

[darb72]

What's hilarious is that this is coming from a Browns fan who has never even sniffed a Super Bowl. You know most of these guys would give up their nuts for a Super Bowl.

When did Stains fans get testicles?

[Ravens75]

Thanks for pointing out Modell not voting for the expansion franchise in Baltimore. I have read that his vote was the deciding factor in Baltimore not getting the franchise. I have often wondered if maybe he already had his move planned and that's why he voted against Baltimore. As you said...it worked out, and it's a long time ago. Nobody really cares anymore.

He did. Art saw the money and manipulated the system to get the deal in Baltimore. That's why former Eagles owner Norman Braman who voted for Baltimore to get an expansion franchise said we would get a team right before he sold the Eagles. He knew.

Art was such a bad businessman that when he was approached with the Gateway project which would've given him control over a joint stadium with the Indians he turned it down because it would've been 15K seats less than his current stadium. He never understood that they would have luxury boxes which have garnered him millions for years along with naming rights for the stadium. His balking and leaving actually kept the Indians in Cleveland who were set to go to Indianapolis. I lived their during the Gateway project and Art and the city of Cleveland really botched the deal.

[sailorsam]

zzraven is right, 'Bombers' went out of vogue after OKC

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[Greg]

Ever hear of Paul Brown?You have no idea how close you were to rooting for the "Baltimore Browns".

Nope. Cleveland fans seem to think this was close but . . .

1) The name wouldn't have been accepted by the NFL fans around from the Irsay move, of which there were plenty 23 years ago. And they were a huge part of the season ticket base initially. That includes me.

2) Modell had no intention of moving the colors and name, he was advised and did keep those things as bargaining chips to get as clean an exit as possible.

[Greg]

Interesting. Thanks for the information.

I always thought there is another option which is simply the same as the Cincinnati Reds. It could be just the color they decided to wear. That's where the White Sox and Red Sox comes from as well. In fact the Red were named after the red stockings that they wore which would make them the original Red Sox. It could be the Browns had brown uniforms

Cincinnati was not Sox but Legs. Cincinnati Red Legs later shortened to Reds.

[RavenAustralian]

Thanks for the Louis correction. I referred to tight end Ed Dickson as Ed Dixon for an entire season before getting it right.

Recall that there were two rounds of Ravens nicknames, one during the '95 expansion and one when the Browns arrived.

The results of the Sun poll were: 21,108 for Ravens, 5,597 for Americans and 5,583 selected Marauders. Marauders was also derived from the Martin aircraft plant in Baltimore, it was the nickname of the B-26 that they produced there. That's the plane you see with the glass bubbles protruding from the nose and fuselage where gunman sat (and were sitting targets). It was nicknamed the Widowmaker because it required landing at very high speeds (on short runways) or it would stall and crash. I do recall David Modell preferring Americans.

For the earlier expansion bid, Baltimore had multiple ownership groups they presented to the league, each with different nicknames in mind.

Boogie Weinglass favored the Bombers, as you point out--it's for the same B-26--and a little more in your face than 'Marauders." He had filed a trademark for Bombers (which, by the way, was also on the list for the Memphis group, along with Hound Dogs and Showboats.) He also trademarked "Ravens" but ultimately dropped that idea because he thought there were already too many bird names in the NFL. I worked briefly for the ad agency that designed the Bomber logo.

Another, 'by the way': Weinglass was not bidding alone. Some of his minority partners included Barry Levinson, Ex-Colt Joe Washington and Peter G. Angelos. (Weinglass was part owner of the O's and would have divested shares).

The second ownership group was Malcom Glazer, the same guy who would go on to own the Tampa Bay franchise. He was pushing for "Cobras" as the team name.

The league didn't like either name. They didn't like the war connotation of Bomber. They had done their own research and pushed the name "Rhinos" on both groups, forcing them to agree that if Baltimore was chosen, it would be Rhinos regardless of which owner group they picked.

As it turns out, not only did they not like his proposed team name, NFL owners didn't like Boogie, either, seeing him as a loose cannon but weren't sold on Glazer either. The expansion process was a bit of a mess, with lawsuits in St. Louis; Memphis threatened to drop out and Jacksonville did drop out only to have Tagliabue talk them back in. The NFL awarded Charlotte a team but delayed the second announcement to give cities time to address the issues.

For Baltimore that meant dumping Glazer and Weinglass. Baltimore scurried to find someone with NFL ties. They had lost a potential bidder in Bob Tisch, who pulled out early in the process to instead buy a piece of the Giants. Another early group that faded was headed by Ed Hale, who had Bart Starr on board as a partner.

John Moag and Governor Schaffer lured Al Lerner to make a last minute bid, and put their weight behind him. Lerner, who made his money in Cleveland and Maryland, owned a 5% stake in the Browns. The expectation was that Lerner and Modell, who was on the expansion committee, would lobby fellow owners to sway votes Baltimore's way. Strangely, they never made an effort and Modell didn't even vote for Baltimore. Commissioner Tagliabue--a Redskins ticket holder and later earning the nickname "The Sun King" for favoring Jacksonville--worked against Baltimore behind the scenes on behalf of owner Jack Kent Cooke.

I've always maintained that Modell--out of financial desperation, cooked up a scheme to grab Baltimore's financial deal for himself, allowing Lerner to take over a new team in Cleveland with league money pumped in. Recall newspaper reports at the time how Schaffer was floored, in tears, at the announcement of Jacksonville, but Lerner quickly and quietly slipped out the back, unfazed by the news.

In the end, everyone involved in expansion "won" in one way or another. Baltimore got the Browns 3 years later. Cleveland got a new team stadium 3 years after that. Tennessee got the Oilers, albeit in Nashville (because of FedEx money), not Memphis, and St. Louis got the Rams from LA. I also believe the NFL used expansion to lure a lot of civic money into the league, paying fees and building new stadiums.

This is spot on as I remembered events. Very nicely stated Shas.

RA