Re-inventing the QB position.

[QuothDaRaven]

One way I see Lamar possibly changing the game:

If and when the next Lamar comes along, perhaps they won’t ask him to play WR.

;)


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[boller4president]

I think Lamar has sort have shown the value in the playaction fake with a running QB and how much the threat of the Qb running helps your running game. We've seen other team try it. Hell I saw a Phillip Rivers PA bootleg last season it was the saddest thing in the world but teams are going/trying to incorporate it.

https://youtu.be/P-P52aFAg_c?t=499

They may not be able to run it at the level Jackson does due to his athleticism but you look at Mahomes, you look at Watson, and you look at Murray teams are using the PA and not just to throw bombs anymore. Murray is for example on pace to rush for around 100 times. Watson around 90.

[John Reglarperson]

Serious question. I see these word thrown around here ALOT. And me being a skeptic ( see early threads on Lamar ) I have to question this.

Now I freely admit that Lamar has grown leaps and bounds and more than proven people like me wrong for doubting him and that’s fantastic. Kid is playing great right now. But is he really reinventing the position? Really?

Let’s look at history.

There was Fran Tarkington ...”running QB”. Put up good numbers played a decent career. Didn’t change the game.

Steve Young::: many consider him a “dual threat “ QB. Won a Super Bowl. HOF career.

Didn’t change the game.

Let’s jump to Mike Vick. Enigmatic player. True dual threat. Nice numbers. Decent career.
Didn’t change the game.
Cam Newton: decent career. Dual threat

Didn’t change the game.

I’ll even throw in Russ Wilson ( who I don’t believe is truly a “dual threat “ ). Super Bowl 2x. Great career so far

Hasn’t changed the game.

Then there’s Lamar. On pace to break every record for Dual Threat QBs. Upward trajectory career so far .....

But here’s the caveat. There’s only ONE Lamar. There was only One of each of these guys and they obviously don’t come around that often.

The NFL has drafted plenty of “Dual Threat “ QBs : Mariota , Winston, Jones, Allan , Taylor , Murray. Just to name a few recents.

These dudes arnt Lamar or the other guys.

So .....how is Lamar changing the game? Do you really believe there will someday soon be 15 or more teams running an offense like ours with a guy similar to Lamar?


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It's a legit point. Teams have had the opportunity to give jobs to running QBs coming out of college for years. They generally don't. Sometimes they do, and typically when they do, the running QBs do well. I use running QB interchangeably with dual threat (I think). Running vs Non Running QBs. Running QBs all have higher ceilings than non running QBs. Because a running QB can pass as well as a non running QB, but a non running QB can't run the way a running QB can. A running QB can always do more, and a running QB doesn't need to be as good a passer as a non running QB in order to get the same results.

Is Lamar Jackson going to cause the people on the TV to stop saying "the NFL is a passing league"? Is Lamar Jackson going to cause NFL teams to hire coaches from college who know how to get the most out of QBs like Lamar Jackson? I don't know. If the Ravens win the Super Bowl over a non running QB team by a score like 73-0, then maybe. See 1940, when the only T Formation team at the time, the Bears, crushed the Single Wing Redskins 73-0 in the Championship. 10-15 years later, the Single Wing teams were gone, the Giants A Formation was gone and it was all T Formation. Then 5-10 years later, the shotgun was "invented", when the shotgun was really the major difference between T and single wing. T was about quickest hitting run plays. Single wing was "Tailback" taking shotgun snaps. "Fullback"stood pretty much next to him. A couple of other backs back there, sometimes they were split, there might be a halfback, blocking back or wingback, each with particular ideal attributes. But 2 guys in the backfield next to each other, 7 or so yards back, that's like what it usually is now, and that's what it was like with the single wing and its variants. If you were to watch one of the single wing teams, there's some good video on youtube showing what the shotgun teams of the day were doing. Teams back then were doing some interesting stuff. The Giants A formation was an interesting spread formation. The Lions in 1943 did empty set trips right, spreading out 3 backs way right.

If teams are going to look at the merits of running QBs independently of media/NFL pressure, teams are going to give guys like Terrelle Pryor QB jobs.

The Ravens have had a couple of pretty dazzling games of late. Last year, Lamar Jackson was not as good a passer as he is now. But the Ravens won 6 and lost 1, to the Chiefs, last year. It really doesn't look like passing well is really all that essential to winning. You just need to get more points than the other team. Lamar Jackson didn't seem to be a better runner last year. He actually didn't have the dazzling runs like he's had recently. But, dazzling runs weren't necessary. You just need to run a lot. Pass good enough, and run well enough, and run often. Pick up the yards on the ground, move the chains, win.

It almost could be argued that doing so well could actually be worse than if Lamar was more running, more dull running, less impressive running, but wins, wins, wins through the Super Bowl.

Teams thinking about the success of Lamar and the Ravens might simply think "well, that's just Lamar, he's a special talent". That might be true, or there might be a lot of others who could do roughly as well if they were unleashed. What I'd like to see is NFL teams realize that going 11 v 11 is best. QB runs work, and they don't have to be dazzling, a run offense w/ 11 works better than a run offense with 10 + handoff guy. NFL teams should be thinking "run first offense w/ running QBs work, and the QB doesn't have to be able to put up 2 158.3 games in a year, or be able to spin a 360 on the way to a long TD run to make it work. A lot of pretty safe 5 yard gains piled on top of each other will get the job done."

Defenses are built to stop empty sets these days, not a backfield with multiple run threats and 300 pound blockers.

Also, if we're talking about "revolutionizing", Greg Roman has to get a lot of credit. 26 carries in his first start. That many carries by a QB never happened before. Set the record, first game. That was a statement. And it wasn't Lamar's choice, that was Greg Roman who, it should be noted, took the 9ers to the Super Bowl with Kaepernick.

Lamar Jackson is a very good running QB who has been dazzling recently. There are other very good running QBs. RGIII was a very good running QB. But it's been Greg Roman who said - this time, you run twice as much as the running QBs used to run. And run twice as much did work - 6-1 last year, and this year there's more dazzling stuff, and convincing wins over very good teams.

Whatever advantage passing games had by having the rules changed to prevent the passing game has been negated by defenses preparing by filling their roster with dbs to combat empty sets. Most teams don't have run thumping MLBs. So, you throw running QB out there on 4th and 2 from the 8, and you surround him with TEs, 6th OL, and DT/FB, and you run for a TD. You win just by putting big guys who can block DBs. It's fun to see Ricard quickly shove McCourty out of bounds. And effective.

[John Reglarperson]

One way I see Lamar possibly changing the game:

If and when the next Lamar comes along, perhaps they won’t ask him to play WR.

;)


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Maybe Terrelle Pryor gets another QB job.

[John Reglarperson]

I heard the Gayle Sayers comparison as well. As a runner, I think that’s fitting. Lamar’s ability to just stop and cut on a dime is not something everyone has.


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"Lamar’s ability to just stop and cut on a dime is not something everyone has."

What is that exactly? It's not exactly speed and not exactly quickness. It's not something that matches a combine test, it's not the 40, the 10 split, 3 cone, or 20 shuttle. The 10 split would have to be very good. Agility? Body control?

[BearArms]

Unless someone with Lamar's generational talent and athleticism comes along with the right coaching staff then NO!!

Teams may put packages in for QBs who can do both, but unless they are as great as Lamar is both running and passing I don't see the same level of success, therefore, I don't see a league wide change

[John Reglarperson]

Was the RPO being used back in those days? Don't think so. I would argue that the combo of Lamar and use of the RPO is absolutely changing the position and the game. He's taken the position to new heights the likes we've haven't seen before.

The question isn't about the awesomeness, and, really, the awesomeness was taken up a few notches the last couple games into amazingland, but the question is whether the NFL is going to ignore this, try to get him arrested for dog fighting, and then shout even louder, against clear and convincing evidence, that "the NFL is a passing league". QBs who run win more, that's clear, and Lamar is the latest best version of this. This playoffs, if the Ravens get there, and they should as long as they continue to fight hard on the field, should be filled with run first w/ running QBs awesomeness like never seen. Look at Kaepernick's big day. Like that, but more of that and better than that, as good as possible, I'd want to see Lamar, but I'd also like to see Ricard carry the ball. More of that Heisman package. Not saying this needs to be now, but playoffs. We're seeing the results now that equal the potency of the Ravens. And if Roman chooses to do so, there is a tremendous amount of space between where the Ravens are now and max run innovation. This is certainly the most innovative offense of the running QB type in recent years, maybe ever. There has to be a most innovative. The Ravens are at numbers right now, 10 games in, that get Lamar the all time QB single season rushing record and the Ravens get the all time rushing yards record. That equates to many as best. Best rushing offense of all time? The case could be made. And it's going along with wins.

[s.r.genovese]

Lamar isn’t going to change football because people aren’t correctly analyzing why he is successful. He is a pocket passer first - he processes information quickly, goes through progressions quickly, has great feel in the pocket, and most importantly he can throw accurately from the pocket. The fact that he can run a 4.3 is ancillary to that.

Most people seem think he is special because he is the best athlete on the field but Mike Vick was the best athlete on the field and he wasn’t special. Lamar is special because he is a real, bonafide, legitimate pocket passer who happens to be the best athlete on the field. Only when you put those things together do you get a QB who can be an MVP at age 22.

As long as people keep solely crediting his success to his athleticism while ignoring the fact that his passing skills are what make the whole thing go then the game won’t change. Kids who are great athletes are going to go out and try to emulate his amazing runs while playing QB but what they should really be doing is working on the fundamentals of quarterbacking: reading defenses, making good decisions, and throwing accurately from the pocket.

[John Reglarperson]

Maybe in college football, those amazing athletes that were QBs at high school will get an opportunity to be QBs at that level. Maybe young great athletes will go to QB camps. Because of Lamar.

This already happens. College is full of great running QBs. College coaches all want great runners and they want to put them at QB. I'd want to see that happen at the pro level.

The question is whether the excitement in Baltimore is going to cause more NFL teams to go run first w/ running QBs. It means outcomes like some team saying "yes, all in with Jalen Hurts, let him be Lamar" It means Kyler Murray might be asked to run more. It means that Taysom Hill gets drafted instead of going udfa. It might mean that day 3 or udfa guys have packages for them. More what they call "wildcat" but it's really just what a running QB does. It's not really Lamar that's inventing this, it's Greg Roman, and Greg Roman is basically improving upon what Greg Roman does. A top running QB comes out of college, and most teams don't really know what to do with him, maybe teams hire coaches from college who worked with running QBs and know how to run 2/3ds of the time. If we're talking the Ravens and Lamar, we're talking mostly about running and QB running, so maybe RBs get more expensive. WRs become cheaper. WRs who aren't effective blockers become cheaper. WRs who are speedy weapons / RBs might become more expensive.

What we've seen might be the most innovation ever, but I just don't see it anywhere near where it could be. If you can run all the time, is the traditional oline with 300 pound blockers who do nothing but block and who are somewhat expert at forming a pocket really necessary? I'm not saying, necessarily "do that", but I'm saying that things like that, completely changing the role of the oline, those are the types of real, maybe crazy, innovations that are possible with a team that doesn't need to pass at all, and if they don't need to pass, they don't need a pocket when they do want to pass.

Most people don't know this, probably don't think about it, but every player on offense, including the offensive line, can throw a pass. Every player on offense can run with the ball, take a handoff, take a pitch, a lateral. The only thing the 5 ols can't do is catch a forward pass.

You could put 11 guys who can run on the field. On any given play any of those players could carry the ball or throw it. Run right and throw or run. Usually run. Multiple good enough at passing running QBs who don't need a pocket to throw from. Most plays are - someone takes the snap and runs right or left, they could throw, run, speed option, misdirection, and all of the players who are doing each of those things could all be throwing. If you've got crazy wide line splits, and if those oliners are not traditional oliners, but maybe quite expensive top sparq DLs who were high school running QBs, or top sparq OL who were high school running QBs, you'd basically have 11 top athletes running in a lot of different ways, probably stronger and faster than the other team, with most plays ending in a run. That's the kind of crazy innovation that can be developed out of run first offense with running QBs.

Lamar + 10 blockers is really the core of that, and that was a great success. That 4th and 2 at the 8, great play. Lamar + 10 blockers. You put those 10 blockers and Lamar out there, you're saying we're going to run. That play was not a success because people were tricked. The Ravens won that battle. You put the same concept - 10 blockers - out there, but you could line them up anyway you want. Wide line splits to start. And just have Lamar run whereever. Lamar could already have, or could develop, good and strong instincts about where to run in certain conditions. And with that as a base, Lamar + 10 blockers, you add weapons to it.

We will open a hole in the oline and we will have Lamar run through it and run for a TD. How about doing that over and over and over again, the same exact thing, until they make changes to stop that? Then add the tweaks.

I like Heisman package and I like Ricard. Both are innovations, on top of the about to be the best single season QB rushing yards running QB, most and best seems like innovation.

[Finisher]

I just love that teams are about to waste a ton of draft picks and years trying to strike gold on the next Lamar. They're going to fail miserably.

There simply has never been someone able to combine all these things: high football IQ/ability to quickly read defenses/ability to elude defenders effortlessly/ability to accelerate on cuts/ability to pick up first downs seemingly at will/ability to basically take over and totally control game flow combined with proficient enough passing. Like there have been QBs who have killed two or three of these things but all of them?

[John Reglarperson]

Lamar isn’t going to change football because people aren’t correctly analyzing why he is successful. He is a pocket passer first - he processes information quickly, goes through progressions quickly, has great feel in the pocket, and most importantly he can throw accurately from the pocket. The fact that he can run a 4.3 is ancillary to that.

Most people seem think he is special because he is the best athlete on the field but Mike Vick was the best athlete on the field and he wasn’t special. Lamar is special because he is a real, bonafide, legitimate pocket passer who happens to be the best athlete on the field. Only when you put those things together do you get a QB who can be an MVP at age 22.

As long as people keep solely crediting his success to his athleticism while ignoring the fact that his passing skills are what make the whole thing go then the game won’t change. Kids who are great athletes are going to go out and try to emulate his amazing runs while playing QB but what they should really be doing is working on the fundamentals of quarterbacking: reading defenses, making good decisions, and throwing accurately from the pocket.

I'll disagree. I'm a huge fan of running QBs. When I watch NFL, what I want to see is QBs running. Lamar did that more often last year than this. 26 carries in his first start. Record. I'm enthused. 6-1.

We really don't know to what extent Lamar's running - actual running, actual yards, actual first downs, actual, etc - is impacting the defense, the willingness of the defense to commit maximum effort to stopping the pass. Defenses aren't worried about Brady's legs, so they spend no time and effort and commit no bodies to stopping Bradys run. You really have to assume that Lamar's willingness and ability to run causes defenses to do something that makes it easier for Lamar to pass. If he was not a runner, it would be harder for him to get the great results he's been getting by passing.

I wouldn't say that his speed is incidental in any way. He's going to break the all time single season QB rushing record, if everything continues to go as it has been, should take him about 3 games to get to 1039. Those rushing yards are important, the Ravens do a lot of running, and they too are on pace for NFL single season rushing yards record. It's a little bit closer than Lamar. And, about 4.3, we really don't know what his numbers are. I'd say slower than that, but with an excellent 10 split. His agility, his moves, are top of the line, but I'd guess below 4.3. He has burst, and that burst is noticeable on the screen, but for some reason he's not showing up on NFL next gen stats for speed. You would think that some runs, especially the dazzling ones, would be showing up on that top 20 speeds for the day list. Unless it's just a situation that it's the moves, the ability to break tackles, burst, agility and not as much raw speed that's getting the job done so excellently.

[SpaceCityRaven]

Lamar is the best version of Young, Sayers and Vick in one package.

All three can run / dual threat / whatever cliche you wish to use. He's had enough touch passes this year to say he has an arm like Young (and is getting better). He's got the cutting ability / deceptiveness of Sayers. He has the speed of Vick (only faster).

If he can stay healthy, Harbs is dead on when he says kids all over the world will be wearing his jersey.

And he's only, in essence, played one season of football. 17 games. But then you figure he's pulled out of a few games because of the lead so you can knock it down to 16 net games total.