Re-inventing the QB position.

**Laxdad24** · 11-18-2019, 01:16 PM

Serious question. I see these word thrown around here ALOT. And me being a skeptic ( see early threads on Lamar ) I have to question this.

Now I freely admit that Lamar has grown leaps and bounds and more than proven people like me wrong for doubting him and that’s fantastic. Kid is playing great right now. But is he really reinventing the position? Really?

Let’s look at history.

There was Fran Tarkington ...”running QB”. Put up good numbers played a decent career. Didn’t change the game.

Steve Young::: many consider him a “dual threat “ QB. Won a Super Bowl. HOF career.

Didn’t change the game.

Let’s jump to Mike Vick. Enigmatic player. True dual threat. Nice numbers. Decent career.
Didn’t change the game.
Cam Newton: decent career. Dual threat

Didn’t change the game.

I’ll even throw in Russ Wilson ( who I don’t believe is truly a “dual threat “ ). Super Bowl 2x. Great career so far

Hasn’t changed the game.

Then there’s Lamar. On pace to break every record for Dual Threat QBs. Upward trajectory career so far .....

But here’s the caveat. There’s only ONE Lamar. There was only One of each of these guys and they obviously don’t come around that often.

The NFL has drafted plenty of “Dual Threat “ QBs : Mariota , Winston, Jones, Allan , Taylor , Murray. Just to name a few recents.

These dudes arnt Lamar or the other guys.

So .....how is Lamar changing the game? Do you really believe there will someday soon be 15 or more teams running an offense like ours with a guy similar to Lamar?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**RavenIsh** · 11-18-2019, 01:21 PM

Well said. Lamar is just an unique talent. I've heard it said that he'll never be Brees as a passer. Folks may want to rethink that.

**Unibomber** · 11-18-2019, 01:25 PM

Maybe in college football, those amazing athletes that were QBs at high school will get an opportunity to be QBs at that level. Maybe young great athletes will go to QB camps. Because of Lamar.

**Ortizer** · 11-18-2019, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by Laxdad24

Serious question. I see these word thrown around here ALOT. And me being a skeptic ( see early threads on Lamar ) I have to question this.

Now I freely admit that Lamar has grown leaps and bounds and more than proven people like me wrong for doubting him and that’s fantastic. Kid is playing great right now. But is he really reinventing the position? Really?

Let’s look at history.

There was Fran Tarkington ...”running QB”. Put up good numbers played a decent career. Didn’t change the game.

Steve Young::: many consider him a “dual threat “ QB. Won a Super Bowl. HOF career.

Didn’t change the game.

Let’s jump to Mike Vick. Enigmatic player. True dual threat. Nice numbers. Decent career.
Didn’t change the game.
Cam Newton: decent career. Dual threat

Didn’t change the game.

I’ll even throw in Russ Wilson ( who I don’t believe is truly a “dual threat “ ). Super Bowl 2x. Great career so far

Hasn’t changed the game.

Then there’s Lamar. On pace to break every record for Dual Threat QBs. Upward trajectory career so far .....

But here’s the caveat. There’s only ONE Lamar. There was only One of each of these guys and they obviously don’t come around that often.

The NFL has drafted plenty of “Dual Threat “ QBs : Mariota , Winston, Jones, Allan , Taylor , Murray. Just to name a few recents.

These dudes arnt Lamar or the other guys.

So .....how is Lamar changing the game? Do you really believe there will someday soon be 15 or more teams running an offense like ours with a guy similar to Lamar?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Tough to say. The only offenses that have tried to leverage their dual threat qb in a similar way to Lamar are probably the skins with rg iii and the 49ers work Kap, yeah? Obviously Roman's offense has evolved since then as well. It seems though, that mostly teams take dual threat qbs, and then don't make that a focal point of the offense. If the Ravens can keep this up for a few more years I could 100% see more teams going all in on the approach.

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk

**pslholder96** · 11-18-2019, 04:00 PM

Was the RPO being used back in those days? Don't think so. I would argue that the combo of Lamar and use of the RPO is absolutely changing the position and the game. He's taken the position to new heights the likes we've haven't seen before.

**JimZipCode** · 11-18-2019, 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by Laxdad24

There was Fran Tarkington ...”running QB”. Put up good numbers played a decent career. Didn’t change the game.

Steve Young::: many consider him a “dual threat “ QB. Won a Super Bowl. HOF career.

Didn’t change the game.

Let’s jump to Mike Vick. Enigmatic player. True dual threat. Nice numbers. Decent career.
Didn’t change the game.
Cam Newton: decent career. Dual threat

Didn’t change the game.

I’ll even throw in Russ Wilson ( who I don’t believe is truly a “dual threat “ ). Super Bowl 2x. Great career so far

Hasn’t changed the game.
.....how is Lamar changing the game? Do you really believe there will someday soon be 15 or more teams running an offense like ours with a guy similar to Lamar?

Fair.

First I have to bust your balls a little. Many consider Steve Young a “dual threat “ QB??
C'mon, man. Dude actually played a game at tailback in the USFL. Also:

Originally Posted by Laxdad24

Russ Wilson ( who I don’t believe is truly a “dual threat “ )

Shyah. Ok, Boomer.

Now that THAT's out of the way –

(Oh, also: HOFer Fran Tarkington "played a decent career"?? Come ON!)

You are 100% right, there have been great "dual threat" QBs before. Some have been great players; they've helped their teams win games, couple have even gone to the HOF; but they haven't left a legacy of changing how the game is played.

More than that: there's no way you can say that Lamar has changed, or even is changing, how the game is played, until a few years go by and we see how teams take & incorporate the lessons of the 2019 Ravens. So a whole lot of this is hoopla and hyperbole. Sure.

But: to my mind, in the "modern" NFL only four teams ever have made a running QB the featured centerpiece of their offense:

Cam Newton's MVP year, where he dragged them to the SB – but his body is falling apart on him now
The Jim Harbs / Greg Roman Niners with Kaepernick – three NFCC appearances and inches from a SB win. Organizational strife + Kaep Kontroversy.
The Falcons of Michael Vick – one NFCC appearance, but honestly he couldn't pass real well (touch/vision).
Go WAYYYY back: the 1981-82 Dolphins, featuring David Woodley with Don Strock in relief.

That last one was weird. Tremendous, tremendous defense featuring Bill Arnsparger's Killer Bs. Shula would have David Woodley start games. Looking back on it now, it's not clear what Woodley did well. He sure as shit didn't pass very well. I remembered him as an athletic running QB. But, at his peak rushed for less than 25 yds per game. So – what was his contribution?

For 2-min drills or if they really really needed to score, Shula would bring Don Strock out of the bullpen. Strock seemed old at the time: I think he's younger than Flacco is now, which says something about how the game has changed. Strock could throw. He's most famous for The Epic In Miami, which I'm grateful to be able to say that I watched on live TV. Holy shit what a game.

Those Dolphins won 11 games in '81 and were knocked out of the playoffs in The Epic; then the following season they made the SB – just so they could feature for eternity in John Riggins' signature highlight run. Don Shula enjoyed that so much, he drafted Dan Marino the following year and changed everything about his offense for the rest of his career. David Woodley went on to die in loneliness and debt:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/playoffs07/...ory?id=3209245

Sad!

(From the perspective of today, I wonder if Woodley suffered some kind of Social Anxiety Disorder, and would have benefited from modern psychiatric tools? Prozac or similar.)

Steve Young's SB team used his running much more than usual for a team of the era. But it was still the Niners, WCO, Jerry Rice and John Taylor and Brent Jones. I don't think that team wins without Young's rushing ability; but the mystique/narrative of that offense had long been established.

I'm gonna pull the Kaep Niners out of that group we've been talking about: other than them, the other teams seemed to be using one special player to squeeze as many wins as possible out of the roster they had. They don't seem to have been constructed with a long-term view of playing a certain style.

What's different about the Greg Roman offense is, he uses the threat of the running QB to change the math for the defense, to benefit EVERY rusher in the formation. Mark Ingram is almost to good a player to use as an example: he's been excellent for many years. But look at Gus Edwards, after Lamar took over last season. That's the kind of impact we're talking about.

And Lamar himself doesn't need to rush very many times to have that effect. Lamar has had 8 carries per game the last two weeks, in blowout wins; and at least one of those "carries" was a kneel to end the first half yesterday.

What's different about having Lamar run the Greg Roman offense is, Lamar is a much better passer than Kaepernick or Tyrod. Roman can threaten a D with all that diverse running stuff, and still have a fully-featured passing offense on the field. Defenses are kind of fucked.

That's before a defense forces Lamar to drop back, and they have everyone covered, so he takes off on a highlight play. That's not super different from anything that has existed before: Steve Young and Andrew Luck and Russ Wilson et al have always been able to get their teams off the hook on third down when no one was open. But on top of everything else, the scrambles are the last straw, the back-breaker.

Finally, with backup QBs of RG3 and McSorley, the Ravens are the first team in the modern era to commit to this style of play top-to-bottom. If the backup comes in for a few series, it's still the same style of play.

No, I don't believe there will someday soon be 15 or more teams running an offense like ours with a guy similar to Lamar. Like you, I don't think there are enough guys similar to Lamar, for teams to be able to find one.

BUT.

If Lamar goes on to have a long career, wins a couple SBs – Roman has shown that you can run this offense and win games with Tyrod Taylor. You can make conf champship games and the SB with Colin Kaepernick. There aren't very many guys like Lamar Jackson. But there's a ton of guys like Trace McSorley etc. This offense could create a place in the league for them.

Also, if Lamar is a hero to young kids, maybe fewer kids who can run get shifted to WR in high school: maybe ten or fifteen years from now there's a larger pool of college players who are somewhat like Lamar.

It's way, way, WAY too early to say. But there's certainly a possibility that Lamar winds up changing the game. At least some.

That's how I see it, anyway.

**wickedsolo** · 11-18-2019, 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by Laxdad24

Serious question. I see these word thrown around here ALOT. And me being a skeptic ( see early threads on Lamar ) I have to question this.

Now I freely admit that Lamar has grown leaps and bounds and more than proven people like me wrong for doubting him and that’s fantastic. Kid is playing great right now. But is he really reinventing the position? Really?

Let’s look at history.

There was Fran Tarkington ...”running QB”. Put up good numbers played a decent career. Didn’t change the game.

Steve Young::: many consider him a “dual threat “ QB. Won a Super Bowl. HOF career.

Didn’t change the game.

Let’s jump to Mike Vick. Enigmatic player. True dual threat. Nice numbers. Decent career.
Didn’t change the game.
Cam Newton: decent career. Dual threat

Didn’t change the game.

I’ll even throw in Russ Wilson ( who I don’t believe is truly a “dual threat “ ). Super Bowl 2x. Great career so far

Hasn’t changed the game.

Then there’s Lamar. On pace to break every record for Dual Threat QBs. Upward trajectory career so far .....

But here’s the caveat. There’s only ONE Lamar. There was only One of each of these guys and they obviously don’t come around that often.

The NFL has drafted plenty of “Dual Threat “ QBs : Mariota , Winston, Jones, Allan , Taylor , Murray. Just to name a few recents.

These dudes arnt Lamar or the other guys.

So .....how is Lamar changing the game? Do you really believe there will someday soon be 15 or more teams running an offense like ours with a guy similar to Lamar?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

It's a combination of things. I'd also argue that Steve Young absolutely changed the game. Not only was Young a mobile QB, but he was also a lefty. Not a lot of lefty QB's in the history of the NFL...I can only think of a handful and Mark Brunnell is probably the most notable one on that list behind Young. Young really took that WCO and made OC's evolve that design into a WCO that gave QB's the ability to freelance and make things happen with their feet.

Lamar is definitely different. However, I would say that his success so far is a combination of factors.

1. They built the offense around what he does best. You don't see a lot of out patterns in that 10-15 yards range. That's not a throw Lamar makes consistently. He's much better than he was a year ago or while he was in college, but Lamar's best throws are over the middle and deep throws.

2. Harbaugh had the wherewithal to see that Greg Roman was the best play caller and offensive mind to build an offense around Lamar.

3. The offense, while exciting and capable of big plays, is really right in line with Harbaugh's philosophy: Ball Control, win TOP.

4. Lamar's personality makes him someone that is completely focused on the task at hand and isn't buying into his own hype.

**Laxdad24** · 11-18-2019, 05:32 PM

Good takes guys. It is a serious question because like I said ....there arnt 32 Lamar’s. He makes this offense. Period. I buy that 100%. Hes the reason it works.

For the guys who referenced the beginning levels of football as changing styles ....they already have. Pop warner , High Schools and some colleges have been running an option style offense for years.

In POP Warner / Rec ball your “best “ athlete is gonna be your QB. Period. I coached for years at that level and I had a “dual threat “ QB about 80% of the time once I go to the 11-13 yr group. Most kids can’t throw that well and get down when they don’t complete passes. Easiest way to fix that is have them fake the pass/ or hand off and run. Like Herman Boone the Vier Option is your friend.

Even when I coached in High School a lot of teams run some kinda speed option or Vier that features a running QB. Hell some of the top teams in MD still do. I believe St Francis and DeMatha run a similar offense to GROs. So the QBs are there. But it takes a special athlete to do what Lamar does. That’s my point. Like the QBs before him ....he’s a one off.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**Laxdad24** · 11-18-2019, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by JimZipCode

Fair.

First I have to bust your balls a little. Many consider Steve Young a “dual threat “ QB??
C'mon, man. Dude actually played a game at tailback in the USFL. Also:

Shyah. Ok, Boomer.

Now that THAT's out of the way –

(Oh, also: HOFer Fran Tarkington "played a decent career"?? Come ON!)

You are 100% right, there have been great "dual threat" QBs before. Some have been great players; they've helped their teams win games, couple have even gone to the HOF; but they haven't left a legacy of changing how the game is played.

More than that: there's no way you can say that Lamar has changed, or even is changing, how the game is played, until a few years go by and we see how teams take & incorporate the lessons of the 2019 Ravens. So a whole lot of this is hoopla and hyperbole. Sure.

But: to my mind, in the "modern" NFL only four teams ever have made a running QB the featured centerpiece of their offense:

Cam Newton's MVP year, where he dragged them to the SB – but his body is falling apart on him now
The Jim Harbs / Greg Roman Niners with Kaepernick – three NFCC appearances and inches from a SB win. Organizational strife + Kaep Kontroversy.
The Falcons of Michael Vick – one NFCC appearance, but honestly he couldn't pass real well (touch/vision).
Go WAYYYY back: the 1981-82 Dolphins, featuring David Woodley with Don Strock in relief.

That last one was weird. Tremendous, tremendous defense featuring Bill Arnsparger's Killer Bs. Shula would have David Woodley start games. Looking back on it now, it's not clear what Woodley did well. He sure as shit didn't pass very well. I remembered him as an athletic running QB. But, at his peak rushed for less than 25 yds per game. So – what was his contribution?

For 2-min drills or if they really really needed to score, Shula would bring Don Strock out of the bullpen. Strock seemed old at the time: I think he's younger than Flacco is now, which says something about how the game has changed. Strock could throw. He's most famous for The Epic In Miami, which I'm grateful to be able to say that I watched on live TV. Holy shit what a game.

Those Dolphins won 11 games in '81 and were knocked out of the playoffs in The Epic; then the following season they made the SB – just so they could feature for eternity in John Riggins' signature highlight run. Don Shula enjoyed that so much, he drafted Dan Marino the following year and changed everything about his offense for the rest of his career. David Woodley went on to die in loneliness and debt:

https://www.espn.com/nfl/playoffs07/...ory?id=3209245

Sad!

(From the perspective of today, I wonder if Woodley suffered some kind of Social Anxiety Disorder, and would have benefited from modern psychiatric tools? Prozac or similar.)

Steve Young's SB team used his running much more than usual for a team of the era. But it was still the Niners, WCO, Jerry Rice and John Taylor and Brent Jones. I don't think that team wins without Young's rushing ability; but the mystique/narrative of that offense had long been established.

I'm gonna pull the Kaep Niners out of that group we've been talking about: other than them, the other teams seemed to be using one special player to squeeze as many wins as possible out of the roster they had. They don't seem to have been constructed with a long-term view of playing a certain style.

What's different about the Greg Roman offense is, he uses the threat of the running QB to change the math for the defense, to benefit EVERY rusher in the formation. Mark Ingram is almost to good a player to use as an example: he's been excellent for many years. But look at Gus Edwards, after Lamar took over last season. That's the kind of impact we're talking about.

And Lamar himself doesn't need to rush very many times to have that effect. Lamar has had 8 carries per game the last two weeks, in blowout wins; and at least one of those "carries" was a kneel to end the first half yesterday.

What's different about having Lamar run the Greg Roman offense is, Lamar is a much better passer than Kaepernick or Tyrod. Roman can threaten a D with all that diverse running stuff, and still have a fully-featured passing offense on the field. Defenses are kind of fucked.

That's before a defense forces Lamar to drop back, and they have everyone covered, so he takes off on a highlight play. That's not super different from anything that has existed before: Steve Young and Andrew Luck and Russ Wilson et al have always been able to get their teams off the hook on third down when no one was open. But on top of everything else, the scrambles are the last straw, the back-breaker.

Finally, with backup QBs of RG3 and McSorley, the Ravens are the first team in the modern era to commit to this style of play top-to-bottom. If the backup comes in for a few series, it's still the same style of play.

No, I don't believe there will someday soon be 15 or more teams running an offense like ours with a guy similar to Lamar. Like you, I don't think there are enough guys similar to Lamar, for teams to be able to find one.

BUT.

If Lamar goes on to have a long career, wins a couple SBs – Roman has shown that you can run this offense and win games with Tyrod Taylor. You can make conf champship games and the SB with Colin Kaepernick. There aren't very many guys like Lamar Jackson. But there's a ton of guys like Trace McSorley etc. This offense could create a place in the league for them.

Also, if Lamar is a hero to young kids, maybe fewer kids who can run get shifted to WR in high school: maybe ten or fifteen years from now there's a larger pool of college players who are somewhat like Lamar.

It's way, way, WAY too early to say. But there's certainly a possibility that Lamar winds up changing the game. At least some.

That's how I see it, anyway.

Touche’ on the ball busting Sir! Lmao. See we don’t really think that different. You just word stuff better. Lol.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**PalladinInNC** · 11-18-2019, 09:44 PM

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

It's a combination of things. I'd also argue that Steve Young absolutely changed the game. Not only was Young a mobile QB, but he was also a lefty. Not a lot of lefty QB's in the history of the NFL...I can only think of a handful and Mark Brunnell is probably the most notable one on that list behind Young. Young really took that WCO and made OC's evolve that design into a WCO that gave QB's the ability to freelance and make things happen with their feet.

Lamar is definitely different. However, I would say that his success so far is a combination of factors.

1. They built the offense around what he does best. You don't see a lot of out patterns in that 10-15 yards range. That's not a throw Lamar makes consistently. He's much better than he was a year ago or while he was in college, but Lamar's best throws are over the middle and deep throws.

2. Harbaugh had the wherewithal to see that Greg Roman was the best play caller and offensive mind to build an offense around Lamar.

3. The offense, while exciting and capable of big plays, is really right in line with Harbaugh's philosophy: Ball Control, win TOP.

4. Lamar's personality makes him someone that is completely focused on the task at hand and isn't buying into his own hype.

You know Wicked, yesterday one of the announcers was trying to figure out who to compare Jackson to. He couldn't compare him to anyone in the NFL past or present as a dual threat QB. However, he could compare him to a former NFL player as a RB: Gale Sayers!!!

Being an old guy who remembers how Sayers used to run...Damn he does run just like Gale Sayers!

I used to yell, "How did he do that" every time Sayers made defensive players look sick trying to tackle him!

Now I'm saying the same thing about Jackson!

**wickedsolo** · 11-18-2019, 11:12 PM

Originally Posted by PalladinInNC

You know Wicked, yesterday one of the announcers was trying to figure out who to compare Jackson to. He couldn't compare him to anyone in the NFL past or present as a dual threat QB. However, he could compare him to a former NFL player as a RB: Gale Sayers!!!

Being an old guy who remembers how Sayers used to run...Damn he does run just like Gale Sayers!

I used to yell, "How did he do that" every time Sayers made defensive players look sick trying to tackle him!

Now I'm saying the same thing about Jackson!

I heard the Gayle Sayers comparison as well. As a runner, I think that’s fitting. Lamar’s ability to just stop and cut on a dime is not something everyone has.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**SouthSide** · 11-18-2019, 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

I heard the Gayle Sayers comparison as well. As a runner, I think that’s fitting. Lamar’s ability to just stop and cut on a dime is not something everyone has.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

One of the guys on ESPN compared Lamar to Allen Iverson. Basically "if Allen Iverson were a quarterback...". How smooth AI was with the ball and the many ways he could score. AI carried the 6ers pretty much by himself.

I thought it was an apt comparison. It is hard to find people compare Lamar to. So much that you have to look outside it football. The Vick comparisons are just lazy IMO.