The Trump phenomenon seen from overseas.

[bossofataka]

If you think Greece has somewhat equivalent care to the better places in Europe and that care is almost equivalent to US care, then you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. You have credo. Health care in Greece is way worse than the us, and it’s not just from the financial crisis

Well, somewhat I´d say, based on the rankings, but I´d take swedish health care over greek, yes... especially now when they´ve been in a state of finacial crisis for 10 years. In general.
But, as is always the case, as long as you can pay your way, there´s just as good doctors and equipment in Greece as anywhere else in the western world, just not as much, especially after the crisis. Extreme shortage of nurses apparently, but loads of doctors.
I take it you´ve had some bad experiences of greek health care..?

[darb72]

Yeah, you do. Expanded access? The FDA? Or in other cases the willingness of certain pharmaceutical companies willingness to pay etc. Laws and regulations that do the exact same thing as this case about Charlie Gard. Or do you honestly think that every bloody american will be given the most expensive care infinitley for every rare condition there is? That companies and state would go willingly bankrupt to test new experimental treatments for decades on a one person if necessary, denying all others treatment meanwhile?

Not a single one of those have anything to do with the government telling a parent they cannot take every chance to save their child. If you want to argue about the business aspects of healthcare, I'll show you why that is a necessary evil.

Read this:

https://books.google.se/books?hl=en&...02010.&f=false

I have. Then, as now, I question anybody who's argument is based on letting children die without trying everything to save them. Who are we to make that decision for them?

But this is nothing but a little side note in the whole discussion about health care. This is what Ditkas stated:
UK sentenced a child to die because he needed care that Parliament was unwilling to pay for. They went a step further to "send a message" to their citizens by banning the family from taking the child to the US, who had several clinics that specialized in that form of care.

This is completeley false and misleading in every aspect, and if you can´t see that, you´re the stupid one.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...treatment-nhs/

NHS quite literally denied the parents any chance to go to America where Charlie would have received the treatments. Since the NHS can only follow the laws Parliament passes...

I have no clue what I´m talking about...? Where did I lose here? Tell me, where am I wrong? Which stats that I presnet are wrong? What facts that I stated are wrong? They aren´t.
No, it´s you who just can´t handle being questioned by someone who isn´t just a little less or more right wing `meeerican, agreeing how mistreated white males are in todays society and which of the stupid libtard democrats is the worst. I´m not stupid, and I apparently have vastly much more knowledge then you, that much is clear.

Have to be honest for a moment. A small part of me somewhat enjoys debating liberals on the off-chance I might be able to talk some sense into 'em. But most of me just does it to watch meltdowns like this.

As to the somewhat rambling points you managed to blindly stumble into, well...
-You lied about us having laws that prevent children from receiving the best medical care.
-You lied about the UK government preventing Charlie from going to America.
-You said Cuba has excellent health care. http://translatingcuba.com/healthcar...-for-everyone/ Oh, my bad, you're gonna go to the OECD again. Here, read this. http://www.aei.org/publication/us-he...y-comparisons/

Next time, try to have a more creative meltdown than, "wah, Darb's a white guy so he's offended, wah."

[blah3]

Well, somewhat I´d say, based on the rankings, but I´d take swedish health care over greek, yes... especially now when they´ve been in a state of finacial crisis for 10 years. In general.
But, as is always the case, as long as you can pay your way, there´s just as good doctors and equipment in Greece as anywhere else in the western world, just not as much, especially after the crisis. Extreme shortage of nurses apparently, but loads of doctors.
I take it you´ve had some bad experiences of greek health care..?

Unfortunately I’ve known a lot of people that have or who had relatives that have.
Oh and the doctor care there not good either. Unless of course you pay them on the side, much like nursing care. This is why you can’t always go by the rankings because no one is ranking the same thing, so while Greece for example may look ok, the reality is something different. Much like other places such as Cuba.

[bossofataka]

Not a single one of those have anything to do with the government telling a parent they cannot take every chance to save their child. If you want to argue about the business aspects of healthcare, I'll show you why that is a necessary evil.

No, I assume it´s much better to have a system where people get denied proven care if they can´t pay a fortune. But I understand why republicans made such a thing about a case like Charlie Gard. It´s like the only thing you can take and try and twist into how horrible european health care is.

I have. Then, as now, I question anybody who's argument is based on letting children die without trying everything to save them. Who are we to make that decision for them?

Now, this is a philosophical, ethtic debate that I have no interest in here. But how an american can try and make this stand in the context of general health care is baffling, when there´s like a handful cases ever from the EU like this, where experts basically just want to end the suffering for a terminally ill poor child with a rare disease that has never been treated, while you have millions denied proven care just because theyre not insured enough, or too poor or some pharamceutical company is cheap. It´s a very strange battlefield to step on to I must say... You just waved off the Expanded access and the FDA too, even though you know as well as I do that it´s the same principle, only it might in the end be up to a pharmaceutical company to accept or deny treatment, or to the hospital if they are williugn to pay or not. Ditkas whole point was that Charlie Gard was denied treatment because of costs. Not accurate, at all, it was on medical grounds only. He also tried to make it out this was some very treatable disease that loads in the US was cured from, which is a blatant lie.
So I´m asking you again since you didn´t answer: Do you honestly think that every bloody american will be given the most expensive care infinitley for every rare condition there is? That companies and state would go willingly bankrupt to test new experimental treatments for decades on a one person if necessary, denying all others treatment meanwhile?

NHS quite literally denied the parents any chance to go to America where Charlie would have received the treatments. Since the NHS can only follow the laws Parliament passes...

You need to look up how this works mate, I´m not gonna sit here and explain how the NHS and courts work or why the parliament never would or should get involved into cases like this. To state that the UK parliament denied treatment because they don´t wnat to pay for it as was said, is wrong in every aspect, and a lie.

Have to be honest for a moment. A small part of me somewhat enjoys debating liberals on the off-chance I might be able to talk some sense into 'em. But most of me just does it to watch meltdowns like this.

Same here. Only ever works with global warming every now and then though. Most of you are just too thick and full of yourselves or just rather selfish, unpleasant humans. And you´re ine of the easiest to make a fool of, almost every single post, without even trying.

As to the somewhat rambling points you managed to blindly stumble into, well...
-You lied about us having laws that prevent children from receiving the best medical care.

Eh, no... oh my... neither does the UK. I said you have similar laws to those implemented in the Charlie Gard case, and you do, wheather you admit to it or not. You CAN get expanded access denied for all kinds of reasons in the US aswell. Jesus Christ, it´s there to read on the FDA:s on page, or whatever source you prefer...

-You lied about the UK government preventing Charlie from going to America.

God, you make this so easy... I think I´ve already clearly stated enough that this needs no further comment. How many times can one say that Parliamnet has no power in cases like this? And thank god for that, they´re not doctors and physicians and experts, so the parliament would never ever even be in a position to grant or deny this, no matte rhow you try and twist it.

You said Cuba has excellent health care.

Indeed I did, which anyone that isn´t a biased right wing crusader will admit. So as far from a lie as there is. Or excellent given their situation I should´ve said, and you´d be hard pressed to find doctors and objective medical experts say anything else. And this is not a defence of Cuban politics in general or communism, it´s just a fact. I can critisize Cuba on loads of things, but general health care isn´t one of them. Only libertarians and right wing americans do basically. It´s mostly economists that try to do it funnily enough, wheras doctors and nurses etc don´t.

http://theconversation.com/is-the-cu...le-claim-69526

Were you a medical student in Cuba for seven years? No? I´ll take this guys word over yours and your tourists then. And international studies, other than OECD too.

Next time, try to have a more creative meltdown than, "wah, Darb's a white guy so he's offended, wah."

Oh, this was no meltdown at all, as I´m sure you know. But this is all you have, try and drag me into a contest of insults, because deep down you know what I said initially was right, and you couldn´t take it, so you had to try and make this discussion about something else instead. You and "the squad" here, or the contras-squad I should call you perhaps, you do it all the time. You´re so used to your lies and exaggerations going uncalled, since you´re all basically very far right and agreeing on almost everything, and then you get called out on your lies on global warming, health care, scandinavian countries politics even (you should come to the island of Sweden btw, I promise the vikings won´t hurt you, nor the dragons, you might even learn something), and you get exposed for what you are.

[bossofataka]

Unfortunately I’ve known a lot of people that have or who had relatives that have.
Oh and the doctor care there not good either. Unless of course you pay them on the side, much like nursing care. This is why you can’t always go by the rankings because no one is ranking the same thing, so while Greece for example may look ok, the reality is something different. Much like other places such as Cuba.

Can´t say I´m entirely shocked sadly, Greece does have a bit of a reputation for things like this. I do also know a few greeks, but they´ve never said anything like this.
I agree rankings doesn´t give the whole picture, but We cant completley discard it either though, survival rates, mortality rates etc does say somethign about a countrys health care usually. And the countries in top of most of these rankings are in general the countries I´d choose to get tretment in too I must say.

[DitkasSausage]

Not a single one of those have anything to do with the government telling a parent they cannot take every chance to save their child. If you want to argue about the business aspects of healthcare, I'll show you why that is a necessary evil.




I have. Then, as now, I question anybody who's argument is based on letting children die without trying everything to save them. Who are we to make that decision for them?


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/201...treatment-nhs/

NHS quite literally denied the parents any chance to go to America where Charlie would have received the treatments. Since the NHS can only follow the laws Parliament passes...



Have to be honest for a moment. A small part of me somewhat enjoys debating liberals on the off-chance I might be able to talk some sense into 'em. But most of me just does it to watch meltdowns like this.

As to the somewhat rambling points you managed to blindly stumble into, well...
-You lied about us having laws that prevent children from receiving the best medical care.
-You lied about the UK government preventing Charlie from going to America.
-You said Cuba has excellent health care. http://translatingcuba.com/healthcar...-for-everyone/ Oh, my bad, you're gonna go to the OECD again. Here, read this. http://www.aei.org/publication/us-he...y-comparisons/

Next time, try to have a more creative meltdown than, "wah, Darb's a white guy so he's offended, wah."

I like how he says my comment was false or misleading... when in reality, that is exactly what happened. If it wasn't, then why did they put police guards on the hospital to prevent people from helping? If they were not actively prohibiting this, and everyone was on the same page, then why order police to barricade the hospital from all of those people that must have been "mislead" to think their government was doing exactly what you say was false? I stopped engaging Boss a while ago... he is going to believe what he believes. Usually I take a live and let live approach to others views, but it is becoming dangerous. Statists like him are ignorant to the danger they present. They call conservatives and libertarians "nazis" as they promote single state solutions... it is the largest gap of intelligence I've ever seen in my life. Growing up, people like him were just considered imbeciles that nobody took seriously... unfortunately, statists grow and spread like a virus.
How people grow up thinking that governments can create liberty is a concept completely beyond the pale... it is a solution that has literally lead to more mass killings, incarcerations, and death than any other philosophy. They buy the hype that people left unchecked will create a vacuum of safety... that we will become bandits and rapists. That man is fallible & corrupted, yet government (which is a collection of man) is somehow infallible if they'd "just get it right".

Here is a question people like Boss cannot answer... What happens, under your system if we elect the wrong leaders? It has happened in the past every single time a government gains too much control... so this shouldn't be hard. The truth is that the USA is amazing, and that a severely limited government kept in check and managed by the people is genius because of the fallibility of man. "everyone is equal" is a myth... a government can only provide equal opportunity, yet they cannot produce equal results because it is unnatural because all men are NOT created equal. Some are taller, some are predispositioned to be heavier, some have skills others can never master. Some are born prodigies. To believe what Boss believes to his bones is to completely detach yourself from reality, and ignore simple truths of the existence of man.

[ravenmaniac4life]

I like how he says my comment was false or misleading... when in reality, that is exactly what happened. If it wasn't, then why did they put police guards on the hospital to prevent people from helping? If they were not actively prohibiting this, and everyone was on the same page, then why order police to barricade the hospital from all of those people that must have been "mislead" to think their government was doing exactly what you say was false? I stopped engaging Boss a while ago... he is going to believe what he believes. Usually I take a live and let live approach to others views, but it is becoming dangerous. Statists like him are ignorant to the danger they present. They call conservatives and libertarians "nazis" as they promote single state solutions... it is the largest gap of intelligence I've ever seen in my life. Growing up, people like him were just considered imbeciles that nobody took seriously... unfortunately, statists grow and spread like a virus.
How people grow up thinking that governments can create liberty is a concept completely beyond the pale... it is a solution that has literally lead to more mass killings, incarcerations, and death than any other philosophy. They buy the hype that people left unchecked will create a vacuum of safety... that we will become bandits and rapists. That man is fallible & corrupted, yet government (which is a collection of man) is somehow infallible if they'd "just get it right".

Here is a question people like Boss cannot answer... What happens, under your system if we elect the wrong leaders? It has happened in the past every single time a government gains too much control... so this shouldn't be hard. The truth is that the USA is amazing, and that a severely limited government kept in check and managed by the people is genius because of the fallibility of man. "everyone is equal" is a myth... a government can only provide equal opportunity, yet they cannot produce equal results because it is unnatural because all men are NOT created equal. Some are taller, some are predispositioned to be heavier, some have skills others can never master. Some are born prodigies. To believe what Boss believes to his bones is to completely detach yourself from reality, and ignore simple truths of the existence of man.

Damn dude. You should be charged with murder.

That’s a William Wallace death post.

DitkasSausage is teaching class and we’re all taking notes.

[New !]

I wonder how people around the world are taking the announcement tonight about the tariff increase? It seems like a lot of countries economies will suffer due to the downstream effects of this trade war. I know it's not very popular here but I would imagine it's even more unpopular overseas. Will other countries side with Trump to try and bring down China? Or will he be left by himself to wage war against an authoritarian country that can simply wait him out. Any international people, please comment.

[BustOfPallas]

I wonder how people around the world are taking the announcement tonight about the tariff increase? It seems like a lot of countries economies will suffer due to the downstream effects of this trade war. I know it's not very popular here but I would imagine it's even more unpopular overseas. Will other countries side with Trump to try and bring down China? Or will he be left by himself to wage war against an authoritarian country that can simply wait him out. Any international people, please comment.

F*** the Chinese. They do not have our best interests at heart. Their trade agreements are completely lopsided and they are thieves of our intellectual property. Okay, hate Trump, but dont' be their puppets.

[darb72]

No, I assume it´s much better to have a system where people get denied proven care if they can´t pay a fortune. But I understand why republicans made such a thing about a case like Charlie Gard. It´s like the only thing you can take and try and twist into how horrible european health care is.

European healthcare is shit. If I come up to you and give you a big bag full of shit for free, all you got was free shit.

Now, this is a philosophical, ethtic debate that I have no interest in here. But how an american can try and make this stand in the context of general health care is baffling, when there´s like a handful cases ever from the EU like this, where experts basically just want to end the suffering for a terminally ill poor child with a rare disease that has never been treated, while you have millions denied proven care just because theyre not insured enough, or too poor or some pharamceutical company is cheap. It´s a very strange battlefield to step on to I must say... You just waved off the Expanded access and the FDA too, even though you know as well as I do that it´s the same principle, only it might in the end be up to a pharmaceutical company to accept or deny treatment, or to the hospital if they are williugn to pay or not. Ditkas whole point was that Charlie Gard was denied treatment because of costs. Not accurate, at all, it was on medical grounds only. He also tried to make it out this was some very treatable disease that loads in the US was cured from, which is a blatant lie.
So I´m asking you again since you didn´t answer: Do you honestly think that every bloody american will be given the most expensive care infinitley for every rare condition there is? That companies and state would go willingly bankrupt to test new experimental treatments for decades on a one person if necessary, denying all others treatment meanwhile?

As long as they're paying, yes, people can receive the best healthcare. Children in particular are usually treated for free or very low costs in some of the best hospitals in the world. https://www.healthcare-administratio...-in-the-world/

You need to look up how this works mate, I´m not gonna sit here and explain how the NHS and courts work or why the parliament never would or should get involved into cases like this. To state that the UK parliament denied treatment because they don´t wnat to pay for it as was said, is wrong in every aspect, and a lie.

So the NHS hired their own police force to keep Charlie's parents from taking him home?

Same here. Only ever works with global warming every now and then though. Most of you are just too thick and full of yourselves or just rather selfish, unpleasant humans. And you´re ine of the easiest to make a fool of, almost every single post, without even trying.

People like you murdered 100 million people last century. You don't get to call others unpleasant humans.

As for making me look foolish, how about trying to prove me wrong, just once.

Eh, no... oh my... neither does the UK. I said you have similar laws to those implemented in the Charlie Gard case, and you do, wheather you admit to it or not. You CAN get expanded access denied for all kinds of reasons in the US aswell. Jesus Christ, it´s there to read on the FDA:s on page, or whatever source you prefer...

People can get denied for trials, but that's a far cry from the government saying someone cannot receive treatment.

God, you make this so easy... I think I´ve already clearly stated enough that this needs no further comment. How many times can one say that Parliamnet has no power in cases like this? And thank god for that, they´re not doctors and physicians and experts, so the parliament would never ever even be in a position to grant or deny this, no matte rhow you try and twist it.

Parliament writes the laws the NHS has to follow. The one that is relevant in this case is the Childrens Act of 1989.

Indeed I did, which anyone that isn´t a biased right wing crusader will admit. So as far from a lie as there is. Or excellent given their situation I should´ve said, and you´d be hard pressed to find doctors and objective medical experts say anything else. And this is not a defence of Cuban politics in general or communism, it´s just a fact. I can critisize Cuba on loads of things, but general health care isn´t one of them. Only libertarians and right wing americans do basically. It´s mostly economists that try to do it funnily enough, wheras doctors and nurses etc don´t.

http://theconversation.com/is-the-cu...le-claim-69526

Were you a medical student in Cuba for seven years? No? I´ll take this guys word over yours and your tourists then. And international studies, other than OECD too.

Yeah, the link I posted was a blog from someone who LIVES in Cuba. But great job on the whole "tourists" argument of yours, considering you linked to a visiting student. You don't even bother reading the articles you post, do you?

"In addition they do this without access to the latest in diagnostic technology or have to wait weeks for basic equipment to arrive at hospitals to perform procedures, even at times without electricity or running water. They still find the strength to push through all these obstacles and challenges to deliver a service worthy of praise."

"they do this without access to the latest in diagnostic technology or have to wait weeks for basic equipment to arrive at hospitals to perform procedures, even at times without electricity or running water."

"The government spends roughly US$300-$400(£240-£320) per person each year on healthcare, pays doctors $64 (£52) per month, but gains about US$8 billion (£6.4 billion) annually as a result of its overseas medical missions. It’s difficult to say where the gains obtained by the government is invested."

"Many doctors opt for participating in these missions as the salaries they receive are remarkably better (even though the Cuban government receives about a third of it). Sending thousands of doctors overseas, though a commendable action, leaves a domestic system under pressure. With fewer doctors and specialists at home, queues at hospitals and clinics are longer, and so are waiting times. Doctors have more work to cover in a stressful profession with limited resources. "


I'll gladly say any doctor working in Cuba has earned much respect, but to argue the greatness of their healthcare system is beyond silly and well into the realm of pure damned stupid.

Oh, this was no meltdown at all, as I´m sure you know. But this is all you have, try and drag me into a contest of insults, because deep down you know what I said initially was right, and you couldn´t take it, so you had to try and make this discussion about something else instead. You and "the squad" here, or the contras-squad I should call you perhaps, you do it all the time. You´re so used to your lies and exaggerations going uncalled, since you´re all basically very far right and agreeing on almost everything, and then you get called out on your lies on global warming, health care, scandinavian countries politics even (you should come to the island of Sweden btw, I promise the vikings won´t hurt you, nor the dragons, you might even learn something), and you get exposed for what you are.

Again, you started the insults. I'm just better at 'em. And I have learned quite a bit from Scandinavian countries. Things like socialism never works, and anybody who supports UBI being an idiot.

[darb72]

I like how he says my comment was false or misleading... when in reality, that is exactly what happened. If it wasn't, then why did they put police guards on the hospital to prevent people from helping? If they were not actively prohibiting this, and everyone was on the same page, then why order police to barricade the hospital from all of those people that must have been "mislead" to think their government was doing exactly what you say was false? I stopped engaging Boss a while ago... he is going to believe what he believes. Usually I take a live and let live approach to others views, but it is becoming dangerous. Statists like him are ignorant to the danger they present. They call conservatives and libertarians "nazis" as they promote single state solutions... it is the largest gap of intelligence I've ever seen in my life. Growing up, people like him were just considered imbeciles that nobody took seriously... unfortunately, statists grow and spread like a virus.
How people grow up thinking that governments can create liberty is a concept completely beyond the pale... it is a solution that has literally lead to more mass killings, incarcerations, and death than any other philosophy. They buy the hype that people left unchecked will create a vacuum of safety... that we will become bandits and rapists. That man is fallible & corrupted, yet government (which is a collection of man) is somehow infallible if they'd "just get it right".

Here is a question people like Boss cannot answer... What happens, under your system if we elect the wrong leaders? It has happened in the past every single time a government gains too much control... so this shouldn't be hard. The truth is that the USA is amazing, and that a severely limited government kept in check and managed by the people is genius because of the fallibility of man. "everyone is equal" is a myth... a government can only provide equal opportunity, yet they cannot produce equal results because it is unnatural because all men are NOT created equal. Some are taller, some are predispositioned to be heavier, some have skills others can never master. Some are born prodigies. To believe what Boss believes to his bones is to completely detach yourself from reality, and ignore simple truths of the existence of man.

I'll stop talking to him in a few weeks when I have to start grading papers. For now he's a distraction.

[darb72]

I wonder how people around the world are taking the announcement tonight about the tariff increase? It seems like a lot of countries economies will suffer due to the downstream effects of this trade war. I know it's not very popular here but I would imagine it's even more unpopular overseas. Will other countries side with Trump to try and bring down China? Or will he be left by himself to wage war against an authoritarian country that can simply wait him out. Any international people, please comment.

The EU will probably side with China, but their economy is nearly as crippled as China's so this is a war Trump can easily win. We'll have Canada, UK, Mexico, and a few other countries to trade with. Our allies will be fine.