Democratic Primary

[BPF2]

What I'm saying, for example, is that the way Amazon and Uber have avoided paying taxes all these years is because they hold very little physical product. Uber and Lyft don't have fleets of cars or trucks they have to buy in order to run their business. Usually, when you buy from Amazon, it's not something that Amazon has had to buy and turnaround. You're buying it from a seller from somewhere around the world, and Amazon has just had to be the intermediary.

That is simply not true. Amazon has enormous fulfillment centers popping up everywhere. There's one up in Baltimore. They sell product that they purchase from manufacturers. In some cases they are an intermediary for the transaction - so you buy from me through Amazon and I ship it direct to you. Other times I can have my inventory ordered and shipped to an Amazon warehouse and when you buy from me, it's Amazon picking and shipping that order.

No merchant pays tax on that inventory if it's for resale (or raw materials if they are a manufacturer). As Ditka pointed out before, those purchases are tax exempt. They aren't getting away with something, it's how it has always worked. The tax gets collected when the end user buys the finished product. Meanwhile Amazon is paying a shit ton in payroll taxes.

[Ortizer]

The Alaska oil fund is completely different. It's universal only in that every Alaskan gets an equal amount. That amount changes from year to year based on revenues and performance of the fund. The other main difference is that this was set up when the state of Alaska decided to open up the oil fields to the private sector. They gave access to a resource owned and controlled by the state (and therefore the people) and created a means to return some of the proceeds to the people.

Automation is achieved by private sector companies investing in the research and technology (jobs for scientists, engineers, mechanics, etc) and creating a solution. This solution is then offered up for benefit either direct to the consumer (driverless cars) and/or to the private sector (robotics for manufacturing). What justification is there for me to reap a modest reward from this? I didn't contribute to the r&d. If I do benefit it would be from lowered cost of products due to automation.

Finally, you keep bringing up "true automation" as completely eliminating the human element. I am having a hard time coming up with an example where no human input or involvement is needed. Perhaps you have one in mind?

Fwiw, in a lot of technological advances, the government did fund some of the research, which means in effect, you did pay into it.

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[Ortizer]

What I'm saying, for example, is that the way Amazon and Uber have avoided paying taxes all these years is because they hold very little physical product. Uber and Lyft don't have fleets of cars or trucks they have to buy in order to run their business. Usually, when you buy from Amazon, it's not something that Amazon has had to buy and turnaround. You're buying it from a seller from somewhere around the world, and Amazon has just had to be the intermediary.

Most things I buy off Amazon are sold by Amazon. They have a robust third party marketplace, sure, not they move a lot of merchandise themselves

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[Ortizer]

What? No. You're missing the point. I absolutely should get the benefit of roads, bridges, schools, etc because I am paying taxes to fund those things. But I shouldn't get $1,000/month because Amazon streamlined e-commerce or Tesla built a driverless car.



Amazon does pay taxes. They pay payroll taxes, property taxes, etc. They may be able to use the tax code to eliminate the corporate tax, but those factors in the tax code are designed to encourage certain behaviors, usually investment in capital goods. And they often get tax abatements to move into a geographical area because of all the new tax revenue they create, mainly through those payroll taxes. That's the point that you and AOC don't get. The other point you don't get is, go ahead and tax these big evil corporations. They still won't bear the brunt of it. The consumer will. So you'll increase my cost of living in order to give me $1,000 a month. No thank you.



First, that's a very simplistic approach which has been addresed by others. Second, while a job may be lost in one sector, it's up to that individual to find work in another. I have no idea what the number of grocery checkout clerks is in the country. But if we suddenly went to entirely self check out, you would still need humans there to assist shoppers, fix errors, monitor to prevent theft. So yes, you may employ fewer checkout clerks then before. My advice is if you are a checkout clerk, you might want to start developing other employable skills whether in grocery or another industry.

So how do you afford to get those skills? I agree if you are a grocery clerk out of high school, it's probably time to pick up some new skills, but that does occasionally require some financial capital to get started. The days of working your way through college loading ups trucks is over.

That said, you won't necessarily see all retail jobs go away as that human interaction will be a business differentiator for some stores.

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[BPF2]

So how do you afford to get those skills? I agree if you are a grocery clerk out of high school, it's probably time to pick up some new skills, but that does occasionally require some financial capital to get started. The days of working your way through college loading ups trucks is over.

That said, you won't necessarily see all retail jobs go away as that human interaction will be a business differentiator for some stores.

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That is a question that brings up a whole mess of other questions/issues. Equal access to quality education, valuing education, valuing the trades, the escalating cost of higher education. I think first and foremost is you need to have the desire and belief in yourself that you can do better. Sadly I think a lot of people's circumstances stop that in its tracks and they are stuck thinking "I can't do any better than this"

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[New !]

A lot of the arguments in this thread re:automation are based on economic and social theory. Meanwhile in the real world many of the people who lost work due to automation are doing very poorly. Wages have stagnated and the gap between the wealthy and the poor is bigger than ever and still increasing. American life expectancy is actually declining for the first time in modern history.

We may disagree on the causes or the solutions but that's not really my point. I just don't see how we're going to reverse the trend as automation gets more ubiquitous unless we make major changes. And it's not just automation, it's health care, it's the drug war and declining civil liberties in general, and the mass shootings and mental health crisis. And this has all been going on with a "good" economy. When the recession hits in the next few months to a year shit will hit the fan. If Trump can't get his approval rating over ~45% now, a recession will doom his chances. Trump supporters will say it's not his fault, but so do the supporters of every other politician with low approval. In the end it doesn't matter because everyone isn't going to see things your way.

My support for Yang doesn't come from some great love for UBI but rather that he bases his policy on what he thinks is a good idea, not by what he heard will be popular. And he's actually able to have deep conversations about his policy ideas. Our current president avoids talking in depth about policy with anyone above the level of a Fox/CNN "news actor" because he would get eaten alive. Yang has gone on programs like Shapiro and Rubin and while there's been disagreement he's able to justify his ideas. He's also willing to change his mind if he feels he's been wrong about something. Lastly, he's not beholden to corporate interests, which eliminates Trump's main weapon that he used vs Hillary.

[darb72]

A lot of the arguments in this thread re:automation are based on economic and social theory. Meanwhile in the real world many of the people who lost work due to automation are doing very poorly. Wages have stagnated and the gap between the wealthy and the poor is bigger than ever and still increasing. American life expectancy is actually declining for the first time in modern history.

We may disagree on the causes or the solutions but that's not really my point. I just don't see how we're going to reverse the trend as automation gets more ubiquitous unless we make major changes. And it's not just automation, it's health care, it's the drug war and declining civil liberties in general, and the mass shootings and mental health crisis. And this has all been going on with a "good" economy. When the recession hits in the next few months to a year shit will hit the fan. If Trump can't get his approval rating over ~45% now, a recession will doom his chances. Trump supporters will say it's not his fault, but so do the supporters of every other politician with low approval. In the end it doesn't matter because everyone isn't going to see things your way.

My support for Yang doesn't come from some great love for UBI but rather that he bases his policy on what he thinks is a good idea, not by what he heard will be popular. And he's actually able to have deep conversations about his policy ideas. Our current president avoids talking in depth about policy with anyone above the level of a Fox/CNN "news actor" because he would get eaten alive. Yang has gone on programs like Shapiro and Rubin and while there's been disagreement he's able to justify his ideas. He's also willing to change his mind if he feels he's been wrong about something. Lastly, he's not beholden to corporate interests, which eliminates Trump's main weapon that he used vs Hillary.

Wages haven't stagnated at all. In fact, they're on a ten year high. https://www.marketwatch.com/story/at...ing-2019-03-08

Wealth gap is just jealousy. It's true the ultra wealthy are gaining more money than poor people, but ARE gaining money and there is plenty of income mobility.https://www.cato.org/publications/po...IaAlN1EALw_wcB

Life expectancy has declined and I'n not sure why it's being mentioned aside from another one of your emotional arguments. The life expectancy is approximately 76. Deaths due to overdoses has increased 76% in ten years, 25-44 being the most likely age in which an overdose death occurs, which adequately explains the decreased life expectancy.

Reverse what trend? People having more money to spend and, thanks to a decrease in inflation, being able to buy more with the same amount of money? I... I really don't want that trend to stop.
-ObamaCare was an unmitigated disaster of historic proportions, as is nearly every plan put into place by the federal government.

-What declining civil liberties? The reason I truly despise people like you is that y'all whine incessantly about civil liberties being taken away without offering any concrete examples while simultaneously doing your absolute best to strip me of my actual civil liberties such as freedom of speech, freedom to own a gun, freedom of religion, freedom of association (forcing me to buy government healthcare), etc... A person who votes democrat is a hypocrite of the highest order the instant they mention losing civil liberties.

-Mass shootings? Somewhere in the neighborhood of 90% of mass shootings occur in democrat controlled cities. Here's two within three hours in Chicago.https://chicago.cbslocal.com/2019/08...ass-shootings/ You're more likely to be beat to death with a blunt object than to be killed by a rifle, but y'all aren't lining up to ban the automatic hammers, are you? Nope. Just the AR-15's.

As for Trump avoiding talking about policy, he doesn't have to talk about them much because they're actually working. The policies you espouse directly led to the murder of 100 million people last century, and continue to destroy cities like Baltimore and Chicago and states like California all because you think stuff should be given to you for free.

[steelerhater]

A lot of the arguments in this thread re:automation are based on economic and social theory. Meanwhile in the real world many of the people who lost work due to automation are doing very poorly. Wages have stagnated and the gap between the wealthy and the poor is bigger than ever and still increasing. American life expectancy is actually declining for the first time in modern history.

We may disagree on the causes or the solutions but that's not really my point. I just don't see how we're going to reverse the trend as automation gets more ubiquitous unless we make major changes. And it's not just automation, it's health care, it's the drug war and declining civil liberties in general, and the mass shootings and mental health crisis. And this has all been going on with a "good" economy. When the recession hits in the next few months to a year shit will hit the fan. If Trump can't get his approval rating over ~45% now, a recession will doom his chances. Trump supporters will say it's not his fault, but so do the supporters of every other politician with low approval. In the end it doesn't matter because everyone isn't going to see things your way.

My support for Yang doesn't come from some great love for UBI but rather that he bases his policy on what he thinks is a good idea, not by what he heard will be popular. And he's actually able to have deep conversations about his policy ideas. Our current president avoids talking in depth about policy with anyone above the level of a Fox/CNN "news actor" because he would get eaten alive. Yang has gone on programs like Shapiro and Rubin and while there's been disagreement he's able to justify his ideas. He's also willing to change his mind if he feels he's been wrong about something. Lastly, he's not beholden to corporate interests, which eliminates Trump's main weapon that he used vs Hillary.

Just to discuss one of your points, can you elaborate on exactly how civil liberties have been declining. I realize that liberals will say that since Trump was elected we’re living in a Nazi state, but can you be more specific?

[Ortizer]

valuing the trades

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This is a huge point in and off itself. They have spent the last 30 years telling students you have to go to college if you don't want to bag groceries your whole life, and it's just not true. The trades are a great option for people that may not be interested in college.

Honestly I feel like if you're not planning to teach, do research, or go into stem, college is a waste anyhow.

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[Laxdad24]

That is a question that brings up a whole mess of other questions/issues. Equal access to quality education, valuing education, valuing the trades, the escalating cost of higher education. I think first and foremost is you need to have the desire and belief in yourself that you can do better. Sadly I think a lot of people's circumstances stop that in its tracks and they are stuck thinking "I can't do any better than this"

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Agreed 100%.


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[Laxdad24]

This is a huge point in and off itself. They have spent the last 30 years telling students you have to go to college if you don't want to bag groceries your whole life, and it's just not true. The trades are a great option for people that may not be interested in college.

Honestly I feel like if you're not planning to teach, do research, or go into stem, college is a waste anyhow.

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The prob with Trades is actually a few.
First in trades that don’t currently require St license’s and also don’t require a lot of thought ( roofer, concrete work, dry wall hanger , land scapeing ) these jobs are filled by illegals because they work hard and cheap.
Second and this my be the biggest ...most kids , young people don’t wanna work hard for a living. No matter the pay level. I do “side” work from time to time and short of my sons or a few others I know ...can’t find a young guy who wants to learn and help. Yes they gotta work hard and do the “bull” work but I pay very well! Lol. My younger brother owns a small company ...he has a hard time finding people under 30 who wanna work. Kids don’t wanna get up before dawn. Work outside in the elements. It’s a culture problem. We’ve allowed schools to engrain in them the idea of a tech job or office job or anything that involves college.


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[darb72]

The prob with Trades is actually a few.
First in trades that don’t currently require St license’s and also don’t require a lot of thought ( roofer, concrete work, dry wall hanger , land scapeing ) these jobs are filled by illegals because they work hard and cheap.
Second and this my be the biggest ...most kids , young people don’t wanna work hard for a living. No matter the pay level. I do “side” work from time to time and short of my sons or a few others I know ...can’t find a young guy who wants to learn and help. Yes they gotta work hard and do the “bull” work but I pay very well! Lol. My younger brother owns a small company ...he has a hard time finding people under 30 who wanna work. Kids don’t wanna get up before dawn. Work outside in the elements. It’s a culture problem. We’ve allowed schools to engrain in them the idea of a tech job or office job or anything that involves college.


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So another democrat policy (open borders for whoever wants to enter America) harms the hardworking people of this country. Surprise, surprise.