How is the Red Zone offense going to do this year?

[Shrubbs]

How can this offense be new? They're going to throw the ball, and last time I checked football teams have been doing that for decades. There might even be run plays in there. Derivative.

[GreatWhiteNorthRaven]

How can this offense be new? They're going to throw the ball, and last time I checked football teams have been doing that for decades. There might even be run plays in there. Derivative.

Nah bro, we running the air raid. Roman said he watched a couple OK games. Air raid is coming!

[GreatWhiteNorthRaven]

It sounds like you are equating whatever Harbs and Trestman did with what G-Roman did this offseason but they are not equivalent. False equivalence is a dangerous thing.

If you don't doubt that it will be different and you admit they'll add some of Culley's concepts and you admit this:



Then why is it so hard for you and others to admit that its different and new?

They changed the verbiage to accommodate young players- check

They added new concepts from college and from Culley- check
*shrugs* I don't know how else to discuss or talk about the offense next year without calling it new.

There are many different variants of WCO (smashmouth WCO, Shanahan WCO, Kyle-McVay WCO, Gruden short passing WCO, traditional WCO) so i'm not quite sure what you mean when you say you are still expecting a WCO attack.
If I had to choose a word/term for the 'style' of offense I would say multiple.


Right, but I've never said there will be a ton of spread concepts. I think I've been quite specific in what I think we'll could see this season. And I don't think there will be a ton or spread and they'll be chucking the ball around the yard. I like that Roman, uses more 22 personnel then most of the league.....and I would have loved to see more of that against the Chargers in the playoffs but I digress.

Most of the plays we discussed earlier in the Ravens 2019 Scheme thread were non-spread Bills concepts:
https://forum.russellstreetreport.co...-Scheme/page11

I'm not equating the situations. I'm speaking to the history of this team in developing 'new' offenses from the ground up, which is obviously relevant.

I think it'll be a very similar offense to what Roman has run with a few Culley concepts added and a different play calling system that will be close to the EP.

I think 'built from the ground up' has been misleading because the play calling terminology is changing, but I don't think the concepts that Roman has run in the past are. That is why I have said I don't think it's going to be much different from what Roman has done before.

Again, not really a bad thing, but I have found some of the descriptions made by a few posters in here to be misleading.

[GreatWhiteNorthRaven]

And again, as always, I will be the first to admit I was wrong, but I just don't think it's going ot be this ground breaking passing attack that is borrowing all of these concepts from other offenses to form something innovative.

Would love to see it, but I just don't think it will. And I also don't think I'd be taking John Harbaugh's word for it at this point. And yes, the Trestman playbook that they sat down and re-wrote from the ground up is an important consideration in the formulation of that opinion.

[Bhcforlife]

They have the players to be pretty good, especially with LJ's run threat, but I just question how aggressive Harbaugh is going to allow the offense to be in the RZ, since in general over the years his teams have generally seemed to play it safer down there.

[Laxdad24]

Then how is anything in the NFL new? They are all “based” in something.

The WCO and offenses in general are named based on the verbiage and philosophy.

Greg and staff have created the verbiage from scratch. Greg’s philosophy is the opposite of classic WCO. He doesn’t dink and dunk as a substitute for the run game. He actually runs the ball he doesnt substitute for it. He throws high air yard/ypa attempt passes not short run after the catch passes.

In what way is that a WCO?

All that aside......

Out of curiosity, during conversation, how would you refer to the offense this year?

I’m in the “Wait and see boat”.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[JimZipCode]

Last time harbaugh rebuilt a playbook was with Trestman and that was a colossal shit show.

???

I thought our "traditional wisdom" here was that Harbs forced Trestman to use Kubiak's playbook. They didn't rebuild anything.

[GreatWhiteNorthRaven]

???

I thought our "traditional wisdom" here was that Harbs forced Trestman to use Kubiak's playbook. They didn't rebuild anything.

He did in 2015. Then in the offseason in between the 2015 and 2016 season they sat down and re-did the playbook.

Not sure why "traditional wisdom" is in quotes here. This is direct quotes from Trestman:

"It's a little unnatural when you (first) come in, and there is a pre-existing offense in place," Trestman said. "It was a very good offense, as we all know. But I spent three months on it, trying to make sure that I simulated the things that were necessary for me to do my job."

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...h-better-shape

[JimZipCode]

Jimmy you’re a implying that the 2019 are gonna run some brand new , ground breaking offense. So the NFL would have the WCO, EP, Air Coryell , aspects of the Air Raid( Arizona) and now the Roman / Culley?

Yes.

Good lord you’re gullible Sir.

Well fuck you too.

Um - Roman and culley are both WCO guys.

Even if the verbiage becomes more EP like, EP concepts like the Pats use are rooted in WCO concepts.

So I’ll continue to ask you the “why” I guess

So you're saying E-P is basically just WCO? I dunno man, that seems too reductive – not useful. Anyway, doesn't the E-P predate the WCO? I thought the E-P dated from the late-70s Giants teams? Or maybe late-70s / early-80s.

So I guess I'll ask you "why not".

Here are some pieces of sports reporting:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sport...nse-proves-it/
By Adam Kilgore
June 25

“There are several coaches on our staff that have always wanted to do this: ‘What would I do if I could start from square zero?’ ” Roman said this past week at Ravens minicamp. “So we’ve been granted that opportunity.”
...
“We’re probably doing iPhone 1 now,” Harbaugh said. “We have a whole new idea. It’s not that there’s anything new in there, concept-wise, that has never been done in football before. But the way we put it together, to me, is unique and different.”
...
When returning players arrived for offseason workouts, they realized how much the offense had changed. They relearned even the most basic aspects — where to stand in the huddle, how snap counts would be declared, at what tempo plays would be run. “We started from scratch,” [Chris] Moore said. “When we came in for the first football school, we had a brand new playbook. All the plays were different.”
...
The passing game will be a more radical change, using more quick passes and two-way options for wideouts created with Jackson in mind. ... receivers can read coverages to change their routes on the fly. David Culley, the wide receivers coach and passing game coordinator, was instrumental in designing pass plays, particularly two- and three-wideout clusters Roman hadn’t previously employed.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...ng-to-find-out
Mike TanierJune 18, 2019

It's hard to get a feel for what an offense will look like while watching spring practices in shorts. But the Ravens appear to be doing many non-traditional things on a fundamental level. It goes beyond the occasional read-option drill. The square-one, iPhone 1 Ravens offense will probably look a little like Roman's Colin Kaepernick-led 49ers offenses, a little like his Tyrod Taylor-led Bills offense, a little like what Jackson ran for the Ravens in December, and a little like something totally new.

It will also sound different. As part of his housecleaning, Roman simplified much of the overcomplicated West Coast offense verbiage the Ravens used when Marty Mornhinweg was the offensive coordinator.

Roman feels that the streamlined language will be easier to teach and install in a modern era when players don't have years to master a system. Roman said it will also facilitate "quicker communication, the ability to play more quickly at the line of scrimmage."

http://grantland.com/features/how-te...rady-patriots/
by Chris B. Brown on January 25, 2013

There are essentially three main offensive “systems” in the NFL: West Coast, Coryell, and Erhardt-Perkins. Given that every NFL team runs basically the same plays, each of these NFL offensive families is differentiated mostly by how those plays are communicated.

To oversimplify, the West Coast offense, made famous by Bill Walsh and still the most popular system in the NFL, uses what is essentially a memory system. ... Passing plays, however, are typically denoted by the primary receiver’s route, such as Z-In, X-Hook, while the rest of the players are required to memorize their tasks
...
The Coryell system, named after former San Diego Chargers head coach Don Coryell and used by coaches such as Norv Turner, Ernie Zampese, and Mike Martz, is built around the concept of a route tree. ... This effectively makes the Coryell system sound a lot like current West Coast offense play calls,1 which have no organizing principle and have morphed into monstrosities like “Scatter-Two Bunch-Right-Zip-Fire 2 Jet Texas Right-F Flat X-Q.” The advantage of a play call like this is that it informs a player of his job better than other systems do. The disadvantage is that it’s excessively clunky, and plays that are conceptually the same can have wildly different calls.
...
The backbone of the Erhardt-Perkins system is that plays — pass plays in particular — are not organized by a route tree or by calling a single receiver’s route, but by what coaches refer to as “concepts.”

https://www.baltimoreravens.com/audi...-by-the-lounge
@4:27 in the podcast Greg Roman says:

"Our offense will be a very concept-driven offense."

I mean, I'm sure we'll see some "Levels", we'll see some Double Slants, etc. Our pass-catchers will be running routes that other teams run, incl routes that are classically "WCO". I'm not saying otherwise; I don't think anyone is saying otherwise. I'm sure there will be some WCO concepts in there; that stuff is in every NFL offense. It's become basic bread-&-butter to every passing game over the last 30+ years.

But if everything is organized differently, and if plays are grouped by "concepts", and if it's called differently, and if option stuff is built-in, and some(?) spread stuff is built-in, and words stand for route-combos in sort of an EP style – is it really the WCO anymore?

When Lamar says it, when Chris Moore says it, when Ronnie Stanley says it: what is this skepticism, other than "disbelieve everything Harbs says" posturing and trying to look cool? It's just "I'm too smart to fall for Ravens PR, unlike the rest of you idiots!" Ok, whatever.



I've said before that I don't think individual plays will look very different, to our fan's eyes. I think most of the cool stuff will be under the hood. Very important to the operators! But only "secondarily" visible to us fans, in areas like how quickly they can run the 2-min and how flexible they are against different coverages.

But that's true of the E-P also. No individual E-P play looks weird or different or spectacularly innovative. It's a matter of organization and flexibility. Doesn't mean it's not "new", or that it's just old-school WCO with different words.

[JimZipCode]

Out of curiosity, during conversation, how would you refer to the offense this year?

This year: the Ravens offense.

If it catches on in subsequent years – if Roman and/or Culley and/or James Urban and/or Bobby Engram take it elsewhere and use it, build on it – then "the Roman/Culley offense".

[JimZipCode]

It’s been touted as a completely new offense, being built from the ground up. It will not be a completely new offense, built from the ground up. Period.

So everyone is lying, including Roman & Culley & Chris Moore & Lamar & Ronnie Stanley. Got it.

[JimZipCode]

Not sure why "traditional wisdom" is in quotes here. This is direct quotes from Trestman:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap300...h-better-shape

Thanks, I'll check it out. Gotta step away for a couple hours rn.