Tanier on Lamar

[Rygar64]

... youll most dramatically see improvement if hes making the passes that you expect him to, that everybody else does, not the amazing passes or ones requiring pinpoint accuracy that only a few do. the reason people question him as a passer isnt because hes not making the toughest throws, its because hes not making the easiest.

That's a take I can get with. Gotta make the layups.

I think that is a fair criticism. I think having a lazer-like focus on the things that still need work are what some folks will rail against in a thread like this though. Part of the problem is as always context and inference. Was the article writer simple trying to point out that he still needs some work? How many of his passes were Tebow-like? If it was 10 of 50, that's a big deal...if it was 2 out of 50, not so much. Both qualify based on how the writer worded it.

Ultimately, none of it holds much water until we get to see it live and against other teams, so like GWNR, I'm just looking forward to that with Lamar Latrell.

[NjRavensFan]

I don't think it was pointing out a negative. It seemed to be more from you statement that some inconsistent throws

"means that the offseason of working on his mechanics didnt pay off"

Thay seems to be where all this started. This statement, whether intentional or not, puts the negative on a pedestal while minimizing all the praise that's been given to how far Lamar has come. You flat out write off his offseason

Exactly. That quote has 100% been the sticking point for me from the jump. Of course I don’t think Lamar should be immune from criticism. But to act like his work this offseason has been all for naught because the stuff he worked on isn’t completely consistent yet is an entirely different story.

[JimZipCode]

nowhere did I say i expected all his issues to go away. I said the first step to me, is being able to make routine passes – routinely. So the fact hes still having issues there, means it didnt have the desired effect and more work is necessary.

Oh!

Well, that doesn't seem to be what those guys thought was the first step. Remember Lamar's first presser this offseason? I think it was the first OTAs; probably the same one where he said "The first day I sucked." Reporters asked what he'd been working on, and he mentioned some mechanical stuff, "not being lazy", firing his hip, etc. But there was only one type of throw that he specifically mentioned (from what I recall): "driving throws to the sideline", like throws to the numbers.

Make sense: coming out of college, the scouting reports said that he was most accurate inside the numbers, he struggled some on sideline throws. So Lamar & Coach Harris did focused work on a defined weakness. Reasonable; even if it wasn't the weakness you wanted / expected.

I pointed out in my OP that i find his statement to be contradicting, because of his statements on progress while pointing out these same flaws. being more decisive with the ball or more confident, doesnt mean his mechanics are better.... im pointing out that area of "routine", not to be negative, but because its important imo to fix that area. youll most dramatically see improvement if hes making the passes that you expect him to, that everybody else does, not the amazing passes

I getcha. You're saying the biggest bump to Lamar's completion pctg will come from the "easy" throws; the checkdowns and swing passes and what-not. Not a highlight bomb that he only throws once or twice a game; but the boring bread-&-butter passes that he'll throw 10+ times a game. That makes sense.

The one thing all the OTA & minicamp highlights show, is Lamar bringing his back foot up forward as he completes his throw. That seems to have been a point of emphasis; probably to help him "fire" his hip. You see him doing that over and over. It's not the "technical intervention" I would have chosen: but it is simple to remember and very easy to self-diagnose. There's logic to using it.

Lamar is doing that in every rep we see. That's the kind of thing that's going to impact the "routine" throws. But it'll take a while for "routine" to translate to "automatic". I think that's ok: training camp is still coming up.

[JimZipCode]

incorrect representation of what i said, and no thats not the only way, its a highly defensive way instead of accurate to the whole article.
...
what i spelled out is that Hes struggling with routine throws. clearly some of us have different expectations on what routine throws are and how often they should be completed.

But the article doesn't say Lamar was "struggling with routine throws". The piece said that there are "routine throws with a Tim Tebow wobble instead of a tight spiral." Some such throws exist.

It does not say that the routine throws were off-target or incomplete. It just says that some of the routine throws were aesthetically displeasing.

So yeah: when you draw the conclusion that Lamar is "struggling", out of a paragraph that explicitly says Lamar looks sharper and more accurate – it does seem that you're hyper-focusing on the negative. That a report of anything less than perfection is a letdown.

[GreatWhiteNorthRaven]

I don't get this either.

Last season, EVEN WITH all the throws in the dirt and other wild stuff, Lamar's yards-per-attempt was in the Kirk Cousins - Andy Dalton range. One tenth of a yard behind Andrew Luck, two-tenths behind Mitch Trubisky. In other words, it was solidly NFL-caliber work. Not top-half-of-the-league, of course: but solidly of NFL-starter quality.

That's WITH the bad throws.

Now you read a report that says "Lamar looks a lot better" and "he's sharper and more accurate" – and you come away "nervous" and "less optimistic"? Because he there were still "some" bad throws? That doesn't quite compute, for me.

Lamar didn't need to improve much, statistically, to be an efficent & productive QB. Just a couple pctg points here & there would be enough to drive this offense to more first downs and longer drives and more points. On Lamar's # of attempts from last season, seven more completions would have pushed his pctg up over 62%. That's just one per start. When Tanier says "a lot better" and "sharper & more accurate," to me that suggests the the one missing completion is probably in the bag, and so what if there are still "some" errant throws. Drew Brees was going to win that stat anyway.

Nervous and less-optimistic seems the opposite of the warranted reaction, to a report like that.



But, but – you are taking multiple reports that say Lamar has improved BUT there are still some bad throws; and you're inferring from them that Lamar must have worked on something other than his arm mechanics. If there are still "some" bad throws, evidently that means Lamar wasted his time and didn't work on his arm mechanics.

It absolutely seems like "no bad throws" is your standard. In other words, perfection. Just because you didn't actually say the P-word doesn't mean that wasn't the standard you were applying.

Wicked said it best. People remember Lamar's throws because the bad ones are really bad. It's not throwing behind a receiver by a half step usually. It's the ball hitting the dirt at the players feet or flying 10 feet over their head (that was one that I saw a few times from camp).

Those are the ones he needs to improve, which I think we all agreed on. Those are the same ones I think are defined as 'errant'. And a lot of the errant bad misses come when his mechanics fall apart, typically was happening after he scrambled and didn't re-establish his base and then threw.

So to hear there's still some bad misses is, to me, not good. I think saying I am applying the standard of perfection is unreasonable.

Maybe my expectations were too high. Who knows. I found it discouraging. You guys can find it however you want, but I still don't find Jab's initial post unreasonable, which is really the only reason I chimed in.

I've said a lot that if Lamar made his layups his passing % would have been a lot closer to about 62-63% and people would have shut up awfully quick. So you don't need ot point that stats out. I'm just saying, hearing that there's bad misses isn't encouraging and I can't help but agree with Jab's reaction because I felt the same.

[GreatWhiteNorthRaven]

But the article doesn't say Lamar was "struggling with routine throws". The piece said that there are "routine throws with a Tim Tebow wobble instead of a tight spiral." Some such throws exist.

It does not say that the routine throws were off-target or incomplete. It just says that some of the routine throws were aesthetically displeasing.

So yeah: when you draw the conclusion that Lamar is "struggling", out of a paragraph that explicitly says Lamar looks sharper and more accurate – it does seem that you're hyper-focusing on the negative. That a report of anything less than perfection is a letdown.

It's the same as the reports taht came out that Ravenish was posting from Vinny. They would say positive and negative. I called out numerous posters for focusing on the negative. Some posters focused on the positive.

Welcome to the offseason, we all focus on different things. Which is why I brought up poster reputation. Jab is far from the type of person that hyper focuses on negativity, which is why I consider his feelings a lot mroe legitimate then the same people that come on and spew negativity every single day/

[GreatWhiteNorthRaven]

Oh come on man. You act like “unreasonable” is some deep cutting personal insult.

You sounded like a dick. I do it too. Own it and move on.

[GreatWhiteNorthRaven]

Rygar - I guess we should have shifted gears lmao. You called it my man.

[JimZipCode]

So to hear there's still some bad misses is, to me, not good. I think saying I am applying the standard of perfection is unreasonable.

This still confuses me. I don't see how you can put those two sentences back-to-back like that.

"It's not good to hear that there are still some bad misses."

Implies —> "It's only good to hear that there are NO bad misses."

• In other words, Lamar never has a rep where he displays a lingering mechanical flaw.
• In other words, he's perfect with his mechanics.

Right?!? Like, how otherwise?



One of us is missing something, either me or you. I think it's you. But you're pretty sharp; I could just be misunderstanding you. But then, please help.

[Rygar64]

Rygar - I guess we should have shifted gears lmao. You called it my man.

LOL, I actually think it has stayed pretty well on the tracks. Some of us softened our stances a bit and even came to some agreements on things. I was worried that since Lamar was in the title that we wouldn't be discussing the things that NEED to improve along with some things that HAVE improved and it would just become like every other thread. But some good points have been made and defended.

[JimZipCode]

Maybe the change from "Tebow" to "Peyton Manning" like wobble would have helped our good buddies out with not criticizing him so much.

I hope Lamar throws a whole hell of a lot of wobbly-duck TD passes.

[Shrubbs]

The thing that scares me most is the turnovers, not whether or not the ball looks pretty