A moral obligation to impeach

[NCRAVEN]

I'll guess we still have to believe that all these type of discussions are just liberal talking points. Any conservative who shares similar views are coined never Trumpers. It's ironic that some of these never Trumpers probably agree with 90% of the conservatives on this boards ideologies. The difference being that they are willing to call a spade a spade. They don't have 100% loyalty to a single man. A man that certain folks will defend even when his faults and transgressions are starting them straight in their face.

It's ok to say what Trump did was wrong and sets a bad precident, but feel it isn't impeachable. However, folks have been conditioned to see things as Trump does. I did nothing wrong. The call was perfect. Mulvaney did not admit anything. Ask Rudy, I don't know what he is doing. Unfair that GOP house members weren't allowed in the room in the basement.

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THe one difference between Obama and Trump is in 2010 the Republicans won the mid-terms in a historic landslide. So they basically had the voters tell them "we don't like the way things are going". By historical standards increasing the Senate and barely losing the house in 2018 was a win for Trump.

Not saying doing nothing is "right", just giving some context.

[BustOfPallas]

Funny, invoking George Soros is similar to us African Americans in the 80's saying "the man" keep holding us down. Lol

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A lot of these "grass roots" groups that spring up and make noise are funded by Soros and Soros-like entities i.e. heavily/shadily funded left wing political groups that often pay protestors. They are basically political operations and anything but grass roots. I understand that invoking his name probably elicits immediate eye rolls. He spreads his money around liberally. It's no different than Democrats crying about the Koch brothers.

The point I'm making didn't need for me to mention him so I shouldn't have. If I offended you I am sorry.

[ddr_jr]

A lot of these "grass roots" groups that spring up and make noise are funded by Soros and Soros-like entities i.e. heavily/shadily funded left wing political groups that often pay protestors. They are basically political operations and anything but grass roots. I understand that invoking his name probably elicits immediate eye rolls. He spreads his money around liberally. It's no different than Democrats crying about the Koch brothers.

The point I'm making didn't need for me to mention him so I shouldn't have. If I offended you I am sorry.

No offense taken. I get it

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[boller4president]

I'll guess we still have to believe that all these type of discussions are just liberal talking points. Any conservative who shares similar views are coined never Trumpers. It's ironic that some of these never Trumpers probably agree with 90% of the conservatives on this boards ideologies. The difference being that they are willing to call a spade a spade. They don't have 100% loyalty to a single man. A man that certain folks will defend even when his faults and transgressions are starting them straight in their face.

It's ok to say what Trump did was wrong and sets a bad precident, but feel it isn't impeachable. However, folks have been conditioned to see things as Trump does. I did nothing wrong. The call was perfect. Mulvaney did not admit anything. Ask Rudy, I don't know what he is doing. Unfair that GOP house members weren't allowed in the room in the basement.

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I have always been in the second bucket. I do think Trump actions were wrong. I don't think they are impeachable and I think more then anything this is an attempt by the democrats to change the conversation and nip this in the bud before it becomes something more.

I would like to know however since I am in the second bucket how democrats feel about past actions that were labelled abuses of power. Do you believe the IRS scandal was an abuse of power that warranted impeachment? Do you believe had Clinton won her actions soliciting help from a foreign power (Steele with ties to her majesties secret service as well as the FSB) to dig up dirt on a political opponent warranted impeachment? How about fast and furious? Do you believe in 2011 when the GAO indicated that Obama broke the law in his dealings with China that was impeachable? How about his many executive orders some of which he admitted were unlawful at the time (DACA) was that an abuse of power?

Where is the line? Once again democrats want to believe the world began as soon as Trump was elected. The rest of us know better and have receipts to prove it if this is the new standard then every president will be impeached because at some point all of them have scandals where they are accused of abuses of power. So yes I think Trumps actions are wrong but I also live in the real world and know things like when Obama leans over and says wait until the election is over then we can do something (to Dimitri) happen all the time.

The only difference is Trump is just really bad at it so he gets caught again, and again, and again. He doesn't attempt to give himself any cover by just going after Burisma nope he mentions the Bidens by name because he well just can't help himself. To me I am more angry with his sort of amateur hour way he goes about things and just how ineffectual it all is then the actual actions itself now Biden has an excuse and democrats are attempting to make it a non-issue when if true of course it should be an issue.

[ddr_jr]

Where is the line? Once again democrats want to believe the world began as soon as Trump was elected.

This is a great post. I'm of the opinion that the outrage is only on the side of who doesn't like the man that is in office. Its a constant rinse and repeat cycle on both sides. President A was never treated as bad as President B. From Bush is being blamed for everything; to Obama is blamed for everything; now Trump. Bush was the worst president ever; no Obama is the worst; to now Trump. Every push back from the decenting party is getting worse, to worser, to worsest. We go from an idiot (Bush), a pompus elitist know it all (Obama), to a straight clown (Trump). I feel like each election cycle we get another level of crazy. Trust that if a democrat wins, it will go up another level of craziness; payback is a bitch they will say! From Harry Reid changing the filibuster rules, to Mitch doubling down. Around around we go... Until the League of Shadows, led by Ra's Al Ghul comes and blows everything up to reset things. That's how I see it.

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[darb72]

This is a great post. I'm of the opinion that the outrage is only on the side of who doesn't like the man that is in office. Its a constant rinse and repeat cycle on both sides. President A was never treated as bad as President B. From Bush is being blamed for everything; to Obama is blamed for everything; now Trump. Bush was the worst president ever; no Obama is the worst; to now Trump. Every push back from the decenting party is getting worse, to worser, to worsest. We go from an idiot (Bush), a pompus elitist know it all (Obama), to a straight clown (Trump). I feel like each election cycle we get another level of crazy. Trust that if a democrat wins, it will go up another level of craziness; payback is a bitch they will say! From Harry Reid changing the filibuster rules, to Mitch doubling down. Around around we go... Until the League of Shadows, led by Ra's Al Ghul comes and blows everything up to reset things. That's how I see it.

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If we go just by effects on Americans, Trump is one of the best presidents in my life time. Bush, Clinton, Obama were all bad presidents specifically because they increased the scope of the federal government into our lives. Clinton fucked the economy sideways, Bush corn-holed an entire generation of children's education, while Obama gave Iran 150 billion dollars and managed to fuck health care sideways.

Democrats will not argue Trump's policy records, instead screaming ORANGE MAN BAD!!!

[BPF2]

If we go just by effects on Americans, Trump is one of the best presidents in my life time. Bush, Clinton, Obama were all bad presidents specifically because they increased the scope of the federal government into our lives. Clinton fucked the economy sideways, Bush corn-holed an entire generation of children's education, while Obama gave Iran 150 billion dollars and managed to fuck health care sideways.

Democrats will not argue Trump's policy records, instead screaming ORANGE MAN BAD!!!

I think this really hits on something that people have a very difficult time grasping. Not just in politics, but in every day life. You have to be able to separate your feelings for the individual from the policies and actions they take. I would love to hang out and have beers with either Obama or Clinton. But I dislike many of their political stances and actions/inactions. I like a lot of trumps policies (Not all), and I like some of the ways he calls out opponents. But I do not like his constant aggrandizing, his need to tweet EVERY thought that crosses his mind, or his often abrasive tone.

Sometimes, assholes are really effective. I've worked with many. And sometimes personable, likeable guys are ineffective, or worse - subtly destructive. I've worked with many of them too.

Hate Trump the individual all you want, but if you step back and look at where we are now compared to 3 years ago, we're ahead. (Please don't take this as an opportunity to list only negative things and thus prove the point)

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[wickedsolo]

I think this really hits on something that people have a very difficult time grasping. Not just in politics, but in every day life. You have to be able to separate your feelings for the individual from the policies and actions they take. I would love to hang out and have beers with either Obama or Clinton. But I dislike many of their political stances and actions/inactions. I like a lot of trumps policies (Not all), and I like some of the ways he calls out opponents. But I do not like his constant aggrandizing, his need to tweet EVERY thought that crosses his mind, or his often abrasive tone.

Sometimes, assholes are really effective. I've worked with many. And sometimes personable, likeable guys are ineffective, or worse - subtly destructive. I've worked with many of them too.

Hate Trump the individual all you want, but if you step back and look at where we are now compared to 3 years ago, we're ahead. (Please don't take this as an opportunity to list only negative things and thus prove the point)

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Good post.


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[jonboy79]

I think this really hits on something that people have a very difficult time grasping. Not just in politics, but in every day life. You have to be able to separate your feelings for the individual from the policies and actions they take. I would love to hang out and have beers with either Obama or Clinton. But I dislike many of their political stances and actions/inactions. I like a lot of trumps policies (Not all), and I like some of the ways he calls out opponents. But I do not like his constant aggrandizing, his need to tweet EVERY thought that crosses his mind, or his often abrasive tone.

Sometimes, assholes are really effective. I've worked with many. And sometimes personable, likeable guys are ineffective, or worse - subtly destructive. I've worked with many of them too.

Hate Trump the individual all you want, but if you step back and look at where we are now compared to 3 years ago, we're ahead. (Please don't take this as an opportunity to list only negative things and thus prove the point)

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Best yet, his greatest accomplishments will last for decades, and may just barely begin to be felt before he leaves office(trade renegotiation).


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[BustOfPallas]

I think this really hits on something that people have a very difficult time grasping. Not just in politics, but in every day life. You have to be able to separate your feelings for the individual from the policies and actions they take. I would love to hang out and have beers with either Obama or Clinton. But I dislike many of their political stances and actions/inactions. I like a lot of trumps policies (Not all), and I like some of the ways he calls out opponents. But I do not like his constant aggrandizing, his need to tweet EVERY thought that crosses his mind, or his often abrasive tone.

Sometimes, assholes are really effective. I've worked with many. And sometimes personable, likeable guys are ineffective, or worse - subtly destructive. I've worked with many of them too.

Hate Trump the individual all you want, but if you step back and look at where we are now compared to 3 years ago, we're ahead. (Please don't take this as an opportunity to list only negative things and thus prove the point)

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I trust him not to f*** up the economy and to put us on better economic footing than any other person running for office, and not to get us tangled up in idiotic wars but at the same time keep our enemies guessing/worried what he might do if provoked.

I can't say that about any other Democrat except maybe Biden. My problem with Biden is 1) He is a cartoonish buffoon. 2)He's part of the same establishment that needs to go/never be in power again. 3) I think he's too old now and think he will say crazy/dumb stuff daily that makes Trump seem eminently sane and in control however petulant and childish he can be at times. 4) Biden has said some things about immigration and foreign policy that are disqualifying. Biden doesn't take the China threat seriously. He recently said things about free healthcare for illegals and that drunk driving is not a deportable crime for illegal immigrants. That's just nuts if you ask me.

Any Democrat that ran on an immigration policy closer to Trumps (i.e. merit based with emphasis on education and skills we want in this country regardless of country of origin) and with even a marginally America first type of economic policy with emphasis on protecting workers (or giving that lip service regardless of if it was reality or not) would clean Trumps clock.

5) I forgot to mention Biden is part of the class of politicians that has steered millions upon millions to his brothers and sons. If Trump did even 1/20th of the corrupt things Biden has done for his family there would be calls for firing squads/armed revolution from Democrats. I would want him impeached for some of the things Biden has done.

[darb72]

I cannot think of a single policy democrats are running on at the moment aside from Orange Man Bad.

[wickedsolo]

I trust him not to f*** up the economy and to put us on better economic footing than any other person running for office, and not to get us tangled up in idiotic wars but at the same time keep our enemies guessing/worried what he might do if provoked.

I can't say that about any other Democrat except maybe Biden. My problem with Biden is 1) He is a cartoonish buffoon. 2)He's part of the same establishment that needs to go/never be in power again. 3) I think he's too old now and think he will say crazy/dumb stuff daily that makes Trump seem eminently sane and in control however petulant and childish he can be at times. 4) Biden has said some things about immigration and foreign policy that are disqualifying. Biden doesn't take the China threat seriously. He recently said things about free healthcare for illegals and that drunk driving is not a deportable crime for illegal immigrants. That's just nuts if you ask me.

Any Democrat that ran on an immigration policy closer to Trumps (i.e. merit based with emphasis on education and skills we want in this country regardless of country of origin) and with even a marginally America first type of economic policy with emphasis on protecting workers (or giving that lip service regardless of if it was reality or not) would clean Trumps clock.

5) I forgot to mention Biden is part of the class of politicians that has steered millions upon millions to his brothers and sons. If Trump did even 1/20th of the corrupt things Biden has done for his family there would be calls for firing squads/armed revolution from Democrats. I would want him impeached for some of the things Biden has done.

Re Biden - I do find it pretty interesting that so many people out there dislike Trump's brashness and demeaning nature (he is a total dickbag sometimes - I don't disagree), but then are fully willing to support Joe Biden who has recently yelled at journalists, put his hands on journalists, body shamed a voter, and challenged voters to a push up contest.

Talk about being a bully...

Joe's a pompous dickhead and a loose cannon.

If he wins the nomination, I would be willing to bet a 6-pack of high end beer that Joe tries to fight Trump at least once during the debates.