Slightly OT: Why did the Ravens abandon the air coryell system?

**JimZipCode** · 02-14-2019, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Yogidriver

Harbaugh doesn't know offense

Sure.

**GreatWhiteNorthRaven** · 02-14-2019, 01:42 PM

Originally Posted by JimZipCode

No.

https://forum.russellstreetreport.co...r-under-Kubiak

Where are those numbers from?

Football reference has a different number for 2014: https://www.pro-football-reference.c...F/FlacJo00.htm

Which is what I look at.

**GreatWhiteNorthRaven** · 02-14-2019, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by JimZipCode

I really disagree, I think Kubiak ran the exact same stuff he'd always been running. He changed Joe & the O-line, he didn't change the system.

Agree to disagree I guess. I definitely didn't see a true WCO.

And I absolutely think the rollouts were to get the ball downfield. Joe's strength was his arm power not his accuracy, which is why any switch to a WCO over an AC was silly.

It seemed to me when they interviewed Kubiak he said yeah I can bring in some of the things I do really well, but modify my route combos to fit Joe better. That's how I saw it play out.

**seraph** · 02-14-2019, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by GreatWhiteNorthRaven

Agree to disagree I guess. I definitely didn't see a true WCO.

And I absolutely think the rollouts were to get the ball downfield. Joe's strength was his arm power not his accuracy, which is why any switch to a WCO over an AC was silly.

It seemed to me when they interviewed Kubiak he said yeah I can bring in some of the things I do really well, but modify my route combos to fit Joe better. That's how I saw it play out.

Kubiak demands footwork and progression reads. That comes from the Bill Walsh learning tree.

**Ravenswintitle** · 02-14-2019, 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by seraph

Kubiak demands footwork and progression reads. That comes from the Bill Walsh learning tree.

Exactly right - Joe's footwork was never better than the year under Kubiak. He was not throwing off of his back foot that year like he started doing later.

Only teams running AC now are Seattle and Chargers, I believe. Even Cowboys went away from it with Dak

**GreatWhiteNorthRaven** · 02-14-2019, 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by seraph

Kubiak demands footwork and progression reads. That comes from the Bill Walsh learning tree.

No doubt Kubiak and Dennison were great for Joe.

I'm referring to scheme. IMO Kubiak adapted his scheme for Joe. Joe didn't adapt to the scheme.

Improved fundamentals isn't adapting to a scheme.

**seraph** · 02-14-2019, 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by GreatWhiteNorthRaven

No doubt Kubiak and Dennison were great for Joe.

I'm referring to scheme. IMO Kubiak adapted his scheme for Joe. Joe didn't adapt to the scheme.

Improved fundamentals isn't adapting to a scheme.

To clarify what I meant, I was talking about the number of steps the QB take from under center tied into the progression being part of Kubiak's system not about footwork in general. Also Kubiak wanted the ball out quick on short drop steps. Seems familiar to Bill Walsh to me which is what we referred to as WCO.

**mmi16** · 02-14-2019, 03:35 PM

Why do NFL coaches always try to pound square pegs into round holes and vice versa - so they 'can fit their system'?

Why not assess what the players you actually have and what they can do and then create a system that presents their best skills in a position to succeed. Work to maximize your players strengths and minimize their weaknesses.

The year before Kubiak didn't they try Zone Blocking with the line and it was a categorical failure as it seemed no lineman knew what his job was in the new scheme.

**The Excellector** · 02-14-2019, 04:46 PM

From what I remember of the situation, Kubiak, came in, initially running what he always had. However, Joe Flacco urged him to take more shots down the field. He and Flacco talked about it and he heard out Flacco's reasoning as to why they should. It was around mid-season that they tried this and Kubiak admitted that it made the offense better. Also, that he'd been pushing the ball downfield more than he ever had. After that, he kind of kept it in.

**Ravensforce83** · 02-14-2019, 04:48 PM

I recall the AC system not being particularly effective early in Cam's run with the team because we didn't have a talented deep ball receiver. Early on they had Mason and some jags and Mason was not a deep ball guy and Cam tended to not use the middle of the field like he could have. I remember reading in another board 2008-2010 about how frustrating it was that we never played a very good deep ball game to take advantage of Joe's arm. In 2010 we got Boldin who helped but he still wasn't a great fit in the AC system if Cam wasn't going to use him properly (which we finally saw once Caldwell took over). It wasn't untill Torrey came along that Cam's system really started to work better because of that deep threat angle they now had. We had many guus that they wanted to be that deep threat that never worked (Demetrius Williams, Yamon Figurs, Dante Stallworth etc) Cam should have been fired before 2011 but then in 2011 his offense began to work a bit better.

Who remembers Cam's obsession with the End around that NEVER worked? Lol

I think because Caldwell tweaked the AC enough( and thank God he did) that they thought they would have the same success in 2013 but they got rid of Boldin, Pitta got hurt, and they mistakenly thought Torrey and Jacoby could carry the load and thought Tandon Doss was something more than he was. They evaluated poorly including the O line and I dont think it was necesarrily Calwell's fault but I was glad they moved on. That was a miserable offense talent wise.

**JimZipCode** · 02-14-2019, 05:11 PM

Originally Posted by GreatWhiteNorthRaven

It seemed to me when they interviewed Kubiak he said yeah I can bring in some of the things I do really well, but modify my route combos to fit Joe better. That's how I saw it play out.

Was pretty much exactly what Denver was running with Jake Plummer in '03; and further back, what they where running with Elway. Kubes modified nothing.

**JimZipCode** · 02-14-2019, 05:20 PM

Originally Posted by GreatWhiteNorthRaven

Where are those numbers from?

The post should be pretty self-explanatory? It's Joe's year-by-year stats vs AFC teams only. 12 games a year, against a mostly consistent set of opponents.

Originally Posted by GreatWhiteNorthRaven

Football reference has a different number for 2014: https://www.pro-football-reference.c...F/FlacJo00.htm

Joe's full-season stats for '14 are distorted by the historic awfulness of the AFC South defenses. Makes it hard to filter out the impact of Kubiak vs the impact of playing probably the worst pass-defending division in NFL history. Much more informative to look at Joe's AFC-only stats.

There oughtt be a way to query PFF for games against one conference only? Need Organized Chaos to chime in here.