Gillette Commercial

[blah3]

Well Cole. I'm sorry for your issues. But it seems you are seeing it as a crisis because of personal situations going on in your life.
Almost everyone going through something difficult sees it as a crisis. That makes total sense. But it is an individual crisis and not a societal crisis.

[bandc]

Deaths by suicide is definitely higher in men than woman. But that seems because they are more successful in doing it. But taking into account attempts, we don't find that men are more at risk there.



There are several gender differences with regard to suicide, involving differences in both successful suicides and suicidal behaviors for men and women.

While it is difficult to discuss this topic, it has to be stressed that this knowledge is important if we are to reduce the number of successful suicides occurring in the United States and around the world each year.
Gender Differences Suicide Attempt and the Risk of Death

In reviewing suicide statistics it's been found that women are roughly three times more likely to attempt suicide, though men are around three times more likely to die from suicide. From this information, it is clear that there are other important differences between the sexes with regard to suicide that we will address.
https://www.verywellmind.com/gender-...ethods-1067508

I wanna say thanks to you guys for bringing up information like this. It helps to put parts of the information into perspective. I'd like to throw out a theory though (it might or might not be obvious)

I believe that one of the big things that contributes to the stoicism from men (and thus the bad mental health) is that men by instinct (I believe) like to take on risk and constantly try to find the edge of what they are capable of. When you are young you start with small things like wrestling with friends and doing dumb stunts to see what your body can get away with, then when you are a young man, most men are expected to move out of the house earlier than women in order to get a job and provide for themselves (which reflects in the poor college grad numbers for men vs women), then men are expected to take on the financial risk of paying for all first dates, and eventually a costly engagement ring and wedding.

I am seeing this real time with my own brother right now. He finished his bachelors and is working as a certified nurse, while paying for housing for his fiance as she goes on to get her masters (she's older than him by 2 years as well). I love both of them and hope the best for them, but I feel like this is the norm when it comes for men taking on the risk of providing. I also made sure that I got a job and place to live for my wife before she finished school. However, I do absolutely acknowlede that these were our choices, and we are both very happy with them.

The next way men generally take on risk is through jobs. Although women are graduating at much higher clip than men, all of the physically risky jobs in the world that generally construct the infrastructure of society are still being filled by mostly men, whether it be military work, or construction/mill work.

I think the final way men take on risk is through stuff like investing and the sort. I've read a statistic that a large majority of forex traders/stock investors are men, while upwards of 97% of those who invested in cryptocurrency were men. Also men work more hours on jobs as well. Now this leads to two things. You can either look like a fool or look like a genius. Men are generally the ones who look for a way to better the financial status of their families and kind of goes back to the childhood thing where we just have an instinct to see what the possibilities of what can do are.

I say all this to say this. Do you believe that men should learn to take on less risk in order to preserve mental health, or is there a better way to go about the risk that we take on.

[GreatWhiteNorthRaven]

Well Cole. I'm sorry for your issues. But it seems you are seeing it as a crisis because of personal situations going on in your life.
Almost everyone going through something difficult sees it as a crisis. That makes total sense. But it is an individual crisis and not a societal crisis.

TBH - I see it as a crisis because I worked in the field and many experts are defining it as such. It's more that mental health has become a public health crisis and suicide becomes the end result of that.

And I didn't mean to try and throw sympathy into a very good discussion. I was just using an anecdotal example of why I may be feeling so passionate about it right now lol.

[blah3]

TBH - I see it as a crisis because I worked in the field and many experts are defining it as such. It's more that mental health has become a public health crisis and suicide becomes the end result of that.

And I didn't mean to try and throw sympathy into a very good discussion. I was just using an anecdotal example of why I may be feeling so passionate about it right now lol.

Well mental health has certainly been a delicate subject which society needs to be more understanding about. I think much of that problem is that it's hard to find a cause. Whereas physical illnesses are generally much more understandable. Your leg hurts because you pulled this muscle causing a tear.

[GreatWhiteNorthRaven]

I wanna say thanks to you guys for bringing up information like this. It helps to put parts of the information into perspective. I'd like to throw out a theory though (it might or might not be obvious)

I believe that one of the big things that contributes to the stoicism from men (and thus the bad mental health) is that men by instinct (I believe) like to take on risk and constantly try to find the edge of what they are capable of. When you are young you start with small things like wrestling with friends and doing dumb stunts to see what your body can get away with, then when you are a young man, most men are expected to move out of the house earlier than women in order to get a job and provide for themselves (which reflects in the poor college grad numbers for men vs women), then men are expected to take on the financial risk of paying for all first dates, and eventually a costly engagement ring and wedding.

I am seeing this real time with my own brother right now. He finished his bachelors and is working as a certified nurse, while paying for housing for his fiance as she goes on to get her masters (she's older than him by 2 years as well). I love both of them and hope the best for them, but I feel like this is the norm when it comes for men taking on the risk of providing. I also made sure that I got a job and place to live for my wife before she finished school. However, I do absolutely acknowlede that these were our choices, and we are both very happy with them.

The next way men generally take on risk is through jobs. Although women are graduating at much higher clip than men, all of the physically risky jobs in the world that generally construct the infrastructure of society are still being filled by mostly men, whether it be military work, or construction/mill work.

I think the final way men take on risk is through stuff like investing and the sort. I've read a statistic that a large majority of forex traders/stock investors are men, while upwards of 97% of those who invested in cryptocurrency were men. Also men work more hours on jobs as well. Now this leads to two things. You can either look like a fool or look like a genius. Men are generally the ones who look for a way to better the financial status of their families and kind of goes back to the childhood thing where we just have an instinct to see what the possibilities of what can do are.

I say all this to say this. Do you believe that men should learn to take on less risk in order to preserve mental health, or is there a better way to go about the risk that we take on.

IMO - men just need to feel comfortable seeking help.

I don't think men need to completely change their behaviour to avoid risk. I think we need increased mental health literacy that helps everyone understand their feelings and then when they feel they need to seek help, they need to feel comfortable in doing so.

I'm really not an advocate for all of this "safe space" bullshit that has populated our society. But I do feel that when it comes to help-seeking, we need to do more work in that space.

This is a good piece of research on the concept of masculinity in the suicide prevention space:

http://www.defence.gov.au/adc/adfj/D...icle_Goyne.pdf

The idea that socialisation could explain the
gender paradox in suicide in the Western world
has been explained by ‘the socialisation model
of suicide’.18 According to this model, suicidal
behaviours acquire a ‘gendered value’, making them more or less congruent with broader
masculine and feminine cultural scripts. Hence,
it would follow that a suicide attempt without
an obvious intent to die would be regarded as
‘feminine behaviour’, more likely to be chosen
by women, whereas completing suicide would
be regarded as ‘masculine behaviour’ because
it aligns with male gender norms of being
action-focused, aggressive and decisive.

On the help seeking behaviour:

Because men are expected to handle problems
with rugged independence, when they need
help they cannot ask for it without exacerbating the negative emotions that brought them
to need help in the first place. Indeed, young
men caught in this vicious cycle might eventually regard suicide as preferable to the dilemma
and shame of admitting a weakness they neither
understand nor know how to manage.

[blah3]

I wanna say thanks to you guys for bringing up information like this. It helps to put parts of the information into perspective. I'd like to throw out a theory though (it might or might not be obvious)

I believe that one of the big things that contributes to the stoicism from men (and thus the bad mental health) is that men by instinct (I believe) like to take on risk and constantly try to find the edge of what they are capable of. When you are young you start with small things like wrestling with friends and doing dumb stunts to see what your body can get away with, then when you are a young man, most men are expected to move out of the house earlier than women in order to get a job and provide for themselves (which reflects in the poor college grad numbers for men vs women), then men are expected to take on the financial risk of paying for all first dates, and eventually a costly engagement ring and wedding.

I am seeing this real time with my own brother right now. He finished his bachelors and is working as a certified nurse, while paying for housing for his fiance as she goes on to get her masters (she's older than him by 2 years as well). I love both of them and hope the best for them, but I feel like this is the norm when it comes for men taking on the risk of providing. I also made sure that I got a job and place to live for my wife before she finished school. However, I do absolutely acknowlede that these were our choices, and we are both very happy with them.

The next way men generally take on risk is through jobs. Although women are graduating at much higher clip than men, all of the physically risky jobs in the world that generally construct the infrastructure of society are still being filled by mostly men, whether it be military work, or construction/mill work.

I think the final way men take on risk is through stuff like investing and the sort. I've read a statistic that a large majority of forex traders/stock investors are men, while upwards of 97% of those who invested in cryptocurrency were men. Also men work more hours on jobs as well. Now this leads to two things. You can either look like a fool or look like a genius. Men are generally the ones who look for a way to better the financial status of their families and kind of goes back to the childhood thing where we just have an instinct to see what the possibilities of what can do are.

I say all this to say this. Do you believe that men should learn to take on less risk in order to preserve mental health, or is there a better way to go about the risk that we take on.

I guess here's where I'm reluctant to go down the path that 'masculinity' is necessarily a 'problem'. There a many good traits to masculinity as you pointed out above. Do we need to attack those because a few traits are 'bad'. And I certainly don't appreciate the idea that all the 'bad' masculine behaviors are done by all men.

[bandc]

Well many in the global public health community believes it's a crisis.

Under that umbrella, a ton of work has been into the "why". As part of that research, they found a lot of interesting stuff in the concept of masculinity and how it can create a barrier for men seeking help when experiencing depression.

So, in the context of an ad that appears to be trying to redefine the concept of masculinity, I felt it was a prudent part.

I also have anecdotal experience in the past two months as I've been experiencing hints of depression since the birth of my daughter (apparently post partum depression is a thing in men). I've found it difficult to talk to people like my friends. I'm in a group chat with my buddies from high school and one of them just said "Who cries more, Cole or Scarlett?" to try and make a joke of the matter.

So that's an isolated incident, but it directly makes me feel like fuck why did I just disclose I am having a hard time to my friends? Why didn't I just keep it inside?

The reality is telling your group of guy friends that for a week straight you had to cry yourself to sleep because you are experiencing depression isn't very manly.

Wow, I'm glad you felt comfortable enough say this, and it sucks that your friends ragged on you for it.

When it comes to men and emotions, I think that there's a line though. I do honestly believe that far too many men hold certain things in because we don't feel we are going to get the necessary support, but also I think some over emphasize it because I know most men don't feel the need to cry or get too emotional about something when coming up with a solution is the priority. I know (anecdotaly) that I've found myself in several situations where a woman around me cried while in my head I'm thinking "ummm we can just fix it like this".

However I'll also say I'm blessed to have friends that are comfortable crying in front of me when they need to, and I also know that might not be the norm for men. I do know that we can do a better job of letting emotional behavior be seen as normal.

[GreatWhiteNorthRaven]

Well mental health has certainly been a delicate subject which society needs to be more understanding about. I think much of that problem is that it's hard to find a cause. Whereas physical illnesses are generally much more understandable. Your leg hurts because you pulled this muscle causing a tear.

Exactly. I agree completely.

People also abuse it too. I've taken mental health days at work before. I've also witnessed people tkae mental health days just to take the day off.

It's a two way street, but the people that abuse it cause the distrust that it's an issue.

[GreatWhiteNorthRaven]

I guess here's where I'm reluctant to go down the path that 'masculinity' is necessarily a 'problem'. There a many good traits to masculinity as you pointed out above. Do we need to attack those because a few traits are 'bad'. And I certainly don't appreciate the idea that all the 'bad' masculine behaviors are done by all men.

And this why I think the ad could have been done better.

IMO it would have been nice if they focused it on help seeking. I think that would have driven a very timely message.

I didn't really like incorprating the cat calling and stuff, personally it didn't resonate.

[bandc]

And this why I think the ad could have been done better.

IMO it would have been nice if they focused it on help-seeking. I think that would have driven a very timely message.

I didn't really like incorporating the cat calling and stuff, personally, it didn't resonate.

That's exactly what I was trying to say before!

Most Muslims don't resonate with a message of blowing up buildings and terrorizing people, although there are Muslims that do it. I know enough Muslims personally to say that.
I know most Mexicans don't resonate with murdering, raping, gang banging, and such although there are Mexicans that do it.
It's same as I know that most, if not all of the men I know don't fight each other, harass women, or rape, even though I know there's a population of men that do.

I think that most people just don't resonate with the worst actions of a sub-group of their identity.

[ravenmaniac4life]

I think that most people just don't resonate with the worst actions of a sub-group of their identity.

Just catching up on this thread...

I think bandc just pointed out why Gillette ran this commercial.

Millions of people don’t subscribe to the identity politics/tribalism ideology that dominates mainstream culture in this country. I’d say that most of us who post here in the Lid don’t. With that being said, this Gillette commercial makes total sense within the context of this ideology and to anyone who agrees with it.

We are defined not by our individuality but by the collective characteristics of our assigned tribe.

This ideology is why this country has gone batshit crazy.

[blah3]

And this why I think the ad could have been done better.

IMO it would have been nice if they focused it on help seeking. I think that would have driven a very timely message.

I didn't really like incorprating the cat calling and stuff, personally it didn't resonate.

Well I think I see why many didn't understand your point. There really wasn't anything in the commercial about men seeking help with emotional. That seems to be another point that is related but not addressed in the commercial. The commercial was basically men are bullies, men are horn dogs, and men think women are stupid.