Is Baltimore's Football culture truly ready for an evolution?

**The Excellector** · 02-18-2018, 07:23 AM

I was just reading a book, not pertaining to the Ravens, that still managed to get me thinking about comparisons for some of the information I gathered from it. The Ravens were a good comparison. Without going into too much detail, the underpinnings of recent Baltimore football culture, from a philosophical perspective, have been a strong rush offense supporting a focal pointed defense. However, the impetus of the 2012 Super Bowl playoff run was the passing offense, which out-shined both aforementioned aspects of the team.

There was a discussion that came up in the Lamar Jackson thread, about whether or not the Ravens coaching staff could maximize Jackson's skill-set. By comparison, Andy Reid was mentioned as a coach who he could benefit from, mind you, with the understanding that Mahomes is his chosen guy. Reid was used more as an example in this case. The point was brought up that Marty Mornhinweg was on Reid's staff, not only for successful offensive years in Philadelphia, but also for a successful time with Michael Vick. More than one analyst/pundit has felt that Jackson is the most athletic QB prospect since Vick.

The counter-point was that Reid oversaw that offense, and that it was more so Reid's show than Marty's.

Looking at the Ravens 2017 season, from the very beginning, I had concerns with Greg Roman bringing in a different run blocking scheme from that which Mornhinweg is most comfortable. The zone blocking scheme that Mornhinweg prefers to use and is most known for, was very key to the success of his playbook and play-calling overall. Especially, the screens that the Eagles were known for. There are varying disciplines to the varying run blocking schemes. As a result, while the rush offense did improve, it did so at the cost of a portion of Mornhinweg's playbook. The screens were largely ineffective in 2017, with Mornhinweg trying to call them in Roman's blocking scheme. One thing I can say about Reid is that Reid, like Kubiak, would not have allowed this lack of symmetry. There's this vibe I get that there is little to no concern over the passing offense being compromised, due to the contrast in styles, as long as the rush offense improves.

While none of us are happy with the way that the offense performed, I get the sense around the city that the Fan-base is glad that the rush offense improved. Dare I say, to the point that there is no concern for at what costs the improvement was made. This, in my opinion, tells me that there is still a large portion of the fan-base that is not ready for the passing offense to take on a larger role in the team philosophy. The talk of QB play, and the definite need for improvement at that spot, seems to be window dressing. I still get the impression that fans are trying to find ways to win with the defense leading the way. Even during the 2016 season when we threw the ball far more than we usually do. The discussion wasn't to get better play-makers and fine tune the passing offense. The discussion seemed to center around getting back to what the Ravens do best. Oddly enough, since Vinny was here, the only way they've truly tried with asserted effort: Running the ball well and playing strong defense.

For those of you in Baltimore, do you get the same sense from the fan-base that I do? For those of you outside of Baltimore, what vibe do you pick up from Ravens fans around you and fans of other teams' views of the Ravens?

**GOTA** · 02-18-2018, 08:58 AM

My area is mostly Giants fans, with some Jets and Patriots fans. They see the Ravens as just another middle of the road team. They have been telling me since it happened that paying Joe Flacco destroyed the Ravens ability to be a contender because we paid an average QB top money. The only other players they talk about are Tucker, who the all want, and Suggs who they all respect. This past year I would get asked if it was true that we had a player who did Irish Dancing but no one knew Collins name or cared about what he did on the field.

The Ravens have been no different than the Redskins since we won the Super Bowl. That's the closest comparison that I can think of. Anyone scared of the Redskins.....ever? You can throw in the Dolphins, Bills, Bengals, Chargers and Lions into that group as well. They may have a bad season or a playoff season but fans of other teams don't really think much about these franchises. They have been middle of the of the road for a while and have no juice to them.

**riprulz8** · 02-18-2018, 10:08 AM

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Originally Posted by GOTA

My area is mostly Giants fans, with some Jets and Patriots fans. They see the Ravens as just another middle of the road team. They have been telling me since it happened that paying Joe Flacco destroyed the Ravens ability to be a contender because we paid an average QB top money. The only other players they talk about are Tucker, who the all want, and Suggs who they all respect. This past year I would get asked if it was true that we had a player who did Irish Dancing but no one knew Collins name or cared about what he did on the field.

The Ravens have been no different than the Redskins since we won the Super Bowl. That's the closest comparison that I can think of. Anyone scared of the Redskins.....ever? You can throw in the Dolphins, Bills, Bengals, Chargers and Lions into that group as well. They may have a bad season or a playoff season but fans of other teams don't really think much about these franchises. They have been middle of the of the road for a while and have no juice to them.

Giants fans talking shit is funny. No one fears their sad ass team either. And the Jets? Well, in the words of Clay Davis....Sheeeiiiiit.

**BcRaven** · 02-18-2018, 11:32 AM

Like GOTA, I live in an area where it's mostly Giants fans, then Jets, with a minor sprinkling of others. Even during Flacco's early, successful years, the Ravens talk here was pretty negligible. They'd only talk to me a little, knowing I was a Ravens fan, but never among themselves. Now there's virtually nothing said about our team unless we play the Giants or Jets.

I thought our offense improved in the second half of 2017, especially our running game, and I actually have hope for our 2018 passing too. My reason is that I "expect" Ozzie to add play-makers @ WR, TE, and strengthen the Oline. Am I on a fool's errand?

... Bc

**lowrider** · 02-18-2018, 12:48 PM

As a fan I want to see a balanced attack on offense, with an attacking (good) defense. In 2012 we actually had both. The defense wasn't great as previous years, but we still had Ray and Ed to coach up the younger guys and keep them in the right places to be successful.

AS far as what people outside of our division think, it's irrelevant. Who cares? Only the Denver and NE have won more SB's then us, since we have been a franchise.

**T-Sizzle** · 02-18-2018, 02:51 PM

I am truly ready to start playing winning football again. Whatever it takes to accomplish that, I am down for. If we start actually getting back to the playoffs and competing, then I believe the fans will ultimately get behind however that is done.

**Ravenalytics** · 02-18-2018, 03:16 PM

I don't think a strong defense and emphasis on running precludes being successful.

At any rate, I think looking beyond the win/loss record, there's pride as a fan to see the team's identity match the city -- gritty, tough, old school. I don't want to see us become a finesse team

**The Excellector** · 02-18-2018, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by Ravenalytics

I don't think a strong defense and emphasis on running precludes being successful.

At any rate, I think looking beyond the win/loss record, there's pride as a fan to see the team's identity match the city -- gritty, tough, old school. I don't want to see us become a finesse team

The last point you brought up is one that I've thought about before. For almost 20 years, there has been this pseudo-respect of the passing offense and great quarterbacks. I say that, because while we need better QB play than what we've had I don't think that's what fans want in one sense. I think Baltimore fans want a QB not taking up a lot of cap, so that they can build the defense, build the line and run the ball. That is where I feel like they want their money spent.

You are right in that this approach doesn't preclude being successful. However, there's a passionate defense of it around the city, in a beloved manner.

When I hear people say, "We need to get back to what we do best. The only way the Ravens have done it is with....etc.", I think to myself, "What other way have we genuinely tried?". Not half-heartedly tried, because plan A didn't work. I mean, genuinely, thoroughly, tried over the course of several seasons? With that in mind, of course one would think it's the only way that's work. Oddly enough, however, that's not how it worked in 2012 and it's as if that has become forgotten.

I've been typing on here for years that there is a phobia of philosophical change with a large contingent of the Baltimore fanbase. If a passing offense does well, en route to a title, you won't here much of this fanbase talk about trying to do things their way with the way they spend their picks, money and drill home their offensive philosophy to a tee. If a defensive-led team wins the Super Bowl, I feel like you'll hear far more "See, defense wins Championships. We need to get back to defensive football".

**The Excellector** · 02-18-2018, 03:44 PM

Case in point. Marty Mornhinweg is given a fraction of what he honestly should, as far as resources in personnel. He's forced to implement an entirely different blocking scheme into his play-book, coordinated by another coach. Yet, there is far littler patience for someone like him. However, Dean Pees has been the Defensive Coordinator since the start of the 2012 season. While there were calls for him being overrated, you really didn't hear the fanbase largely grumble about him until 2016. Up until that point it was a lot of, 'Pees needs this', 'Pees needs that', 'Give Pees this and you'll see how he coaches differently'.

I still feel like passing offense in Baltimore is the unwanted Step-child.

**BillickFan** · 02-18-2018, 04:38 PM

As an older guy (50+), I still love teams built on a smashmouth running game & a hard hitting defense. Those things work in Dec/Jan usually...... But - you gotta get to January and with all the mamby pamby rules changes where if a DB breathes on a WR it's pass interference & a good solid hard tackle draws a 15 yard penalty (even clean hard hits draw a flag if the WR/TE's head snaps back - saw at least 5 unnecessary roughness flags for shoulder pad to the chest hard hits), the league is clearly emphasizing offense, primarily passing offense. If we want to play in late January, the O has to evolve. I still want to rush the F out of the opposing QB & light up receivers once they catch the ball, but we have to evolve to compete the way the rules are being interpreted now. I re-watched the Ravens/Giants Super Bowl & in today's NFL, the Giants may have won that game b/c our D would have been flagged for hitting NYG players too hard at least a dozen times. Clean, hard hits - but with extreme violence (the best kind!). I find myself losing some NFL interest b/c of all the flags, all the restrictions on defensive players & perhaps I'm just an old barbarian but taking the violence out of the game has me ranking MMA over NFL now. If a non-Ravens game were on vs a nice UFC card, I'd be watching UFC. I'll watch every Ravens snap of every season, but for non Bmore teams.....I'm finding other ways to spend my time.

**BcRaven** · 02-18-2018, 04:46 PM

Originally Posted by BillickFan

As an older guy (50+), I still love teams built on a smashmouth running game & a hard hitting defense. Those things work in Dec/Jan usually...... But - you gotta get to January and with all the mamby pamby rules changes where if a DB breathes on a WR it's pass interference & a good solid hard tackle draws a 15 yard penalty (even clean hard hits draw a flag if the WR/TE's head snaps back - saw at least 5 unnecessary roughness flags for shoulder pad to the chest hard hits), the league is clearly emphasizing offense, primarily passing offense. If we want to play in late January, the O has to evolve. I still want to rush the F out of the opposing QB & light up receivers once they catch the ball, but we have to evolve to compete the way the rules are being interpreted now. I re-watched the Ravens/Giants Super Bowl & in today's NFL, the Giants may have won that game b/c our D would have been flagged for hitting NYG players too hard at least a dozen times. Clean, hard hits - but with extreme violence (the best kind!). I find myself losing some NFL interest b/c of all the flags, all the restrictions on defensive players & perhaps I'm just an old barbarian but taking the violence out of the game has me ranking MMA over NFL now. If a non-Ravens game were on vs a nice UFC card, I'd be watching UFC. I'll watch every Ravens snap of every season, but for non Bmore teams.....I'm finding other ways to spend my time.

BF, I know where you're coming from, but even with what would be today called "clean hits" the Giants still would not have stood a chance against the 2000/01 Ravens defense... Bc