Ravens Fan Commitment

[usmccharles]

Pretty much agree and I've been on the fence w/ selling my PSLs for a couple years now. Going to wait and see what they do in the next couple weeks but it may finally be time. I don't care so much about the monetary investment, I got 15 years of going to games with my dad and lots of great memories I wouldn't change for anything, but we can watch games from home now in HD where I don't have to worry about him freezing to death and is overall a much more enjoyable experience vs. going to a Dec 31 game sitting in 10 degree weather for several hours just to have the team take a big dump on your face.

Yea, I get to some the monetary part is important but I think looking at it from an investment stand point prolly isn't the best, but I don't know, I'm Not Invested.

Sadly I've never been to a Baltimore home Game and would love to. Been to Miami, kc, TN, SD x2. Was thinking about it this coming year but since they will be in LA and TN again going with those. I can't imagine sitting in 10 degree weather.

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[ERey]

The whole idea of "fickle fans" is kind of BS. We don't owe the team anything. I'm not here to impress anybody or be a "real fan,"

I used to be obsessed with being a "real fan". I still support the team and I will attend the games next year, but this is the first year I reached a breaking point - mainly due to the London fiasco. I've since put that behind me as it appears the team has.

On selling tickets... I have friends that will only sell to Ravens fans and that's just fine. However, I sold some of my tickets to the highest bidder this year. The players and owners always tell us it's a business, that applies to us fans as well.

[Captain Offense]

Interesting comments. I think the product at home is just so good, doesn't make a lot of sense anymore to a lot of fans to go spend the amount of money it takes to go in person. One maybe two games a year I'm good, but I also don't live in Baltimore

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For me, I have met people that I never would without the in-stadium/travel experience. I also have gone to cities that I might not choose on a regular travel list. When I have interactions with various backgrounds because we share one thing ( and everybody keeps it at that), I am fortunate. I am thankful to have met people on this board solely because of the in-game experience.

But that is what I get from it.

[Ravens44]

I wanted to prove whether Ravens fans are comitted to the team based on hard data and I figure people are most honest with their money. I can't use ticket sales because of the PSL paradigm however I figure I can use Marketplace PSL sales as an indicator. The price and quantity of sales should be a fairly reliable indicator of fan interest. Thankfully enough the PSL marketplace publishes PSL sales data so I made the chart attached.

During 2009 there was sharp drop off but I don't know if that was economy , record, or both. After that the price of the PSL's jumps around a bit but rises significantly in 2012 with the Superbowl. Since then it has declined with every season where we missed the playoffs. An interesting part of this data is that the number of PSL's sold over the last two years has spiked dramatically again indicating waning interest in going to a game.

Any conclusion based on this data is suspect because without talking with sellers the real root cause can't be known, however, it is interesting that the data does correlate with success of the team (excepting 2009) supporting the idea that Ravens fans are fickle.

When I look at the graph, I don't see the fan base being fickle at all.
But I do see the disconnect between the organization and the fan base.
The drop off can be explained in various ways depending on one's agenda or viewpoint.
Stats or a graph don't always show the real reason for outcomes.

Here, I will give an example...what were the ages of the fans shelling out the PSL money back in the late 1990's???
I would say young fans of the NFL simply were not in a financial position to throw out a few thousand for PSLs.
So, it was a bit older crowd...so as the years have gone by, those PSL holders became older and older and eventually have a harder time physically going through hours of tailgates and weather, etc., on a Sunday, and then going back to work early the next day. I KNOW this because I am one of them.
By the time these PSL holders got into their 50s or 60s, they start giving their tickets away or selling some of them.
But, as time has passed into some of the most boring games imaginable...while the entire rest of the league has turned into a passing league...the Ravens are stuck in the year 2000.
It simply is not entertaining anymore for these older folks who forked out the initial money, to invest so much time and money and energy and emotions for this little of a return...and lately, every year, the same approach and the same freaking outcome.
Meanwhile, a lot of the younger crowd are too busy looking at their cell phones to notice what's happening on the field and could care less once they are done their selfies.
And they are not going to fork out 4 figures for PSLs or season tickets when it is so much better to watch at a friend's house or go to a bar.
Need proof? Here's some. My son at 32, now has our season tickets. But he has 2 little ones at home.
He couldn't go to all the games of course, so he tried to sell some of them...no takers...tried to give them away, no takers.
The younger crowd does not want to sit through this $hit$how.
For the Bengal game, the time change effected plans that were made weeks before.
Many fans decided that the product was not worth missing New Year's plans with family and loved ones.
The NFL thought differently than the fans.
Yet my son was there.
How do you think he feels about the Ravens today after seeing the same ole freaking ridiculous result due to the front office and coaching staff doing the same exact thing, thinking there would be a different result?
Well, the front office better wake the %--- up. Or they will lose the young fans who actually cared up until now.
Is that a fickle fan base or is that a front office and coaching staff insisting their way is right, when results prove them wrong, season after season after season?
How long did it take for them to admit trading Boldin away was wrong? Fans knew the moment they heard it.

See how that works? It could simply be the fan base getting older and the front office is so disconnected from them that something so simple (like not appealing their product to the younger crowd) passes unnoticed right past them, just like Bengal receivers...or JuJu Smith-Schuster in the second round...

[MyTurn]

The whole idea of "fickle fans" is kind of BS. We don't owe the team anything..

I chose that word carefully because it means changing loyalty often. The theory I put together is that money is a better indicator of team loyalty (measurement of fickle) than statements, ticket sales, or polls for the Ravens. The monetary value of PSL's does seem to follow the success of the team meaning that when the team makes the playoffs monetary value of PSL's (loyalty) goes up. Correspondingly when the team does not make the playoffs monetary value of PSL's (loyalty) goes down. The rate at which it goes down is faster than the rate at which it rises.This is all theory, there are endless reasons why monetary value of PSL's could be affected by something other than team success.

In addition I agree that we the fans owe the Ravens nothing and they owe us nothing. However, by the time you get to that mentality in a relationship things have already gotten really bad.

[MyTurn]

When I look at the graph, I don't see the fan base being fickle at all.

I don't disagree that there are endless possible reasons that the graph turned out that way that have nothing to do with loyalty or fickle fans. The data I have available (PSL monetary value) does generally seem to follow whether the Ravens make the playoffs or not . If you assume that is the only factor, which it almost certainly is not, it would indicate that the fans change loyalty with the playoff success of team which would be indicative of a fickle fan base.

A list of circumstantial reasons would be long and difficult to prove.

[HbgPARavenfan]

During 2009 there was sharp drop off but I don't know if that was economy , record, or both. After that the price of the PSL's jumps around a bit but rises significantly in 2012 with the Superbowl. Since then it has declined with every season where we missed the playoffs. An interesting part of this data is that the number of PSL's sold over the last two years has spiked dramatically again indicating waning interest in going to a game.

Makes sense, people dont want to watch losing teams because of how expensive it is to go to a game. When the prices bottom out, resellars try to make some quick money much like the crypto craze.

When you win more, fans start to want to come back..


conclusion: winning solves everything

[HotInHere]

The whole idea of "fickle fans" is kind of BS. We don't owe the team anything. I'm not here to impress anybody or be a "real fan," I enjoy sports and have since I was a child but the product needs to be good enough to earn my interest. I have plenty of books to read, movies to watch, people to meet and talk to, places to see, etc. etc. that if football went away my life wouldn't be over.

That's very much the case of the current fan -- and therein lies the problem for the NFL, and the Ravens in particular. If sports is just entertainment to me, then I am no more engaged than if I go to a movie. The movie sucks, I leave. If it doesn't look like it's going to be an entertaining move, I don't go.

But for some people, sports does involve some sort of commitment. Not that we owe the team anything per se, but we CHOOSE to make a commitment and we CHOOSE to engage loyally with a team, taking part in its wins and losses, supporting them the entire time. A front-running Pats fan (who is also a huge Warriors, Duke, and Yankee fan) will never know the euphoria I experienced winning Super Bowls in 2000 and 2012, because I was committed to it, win or lose. And I still am, and I will be even if we go 2-14 next year.

That's why my frozen ass spend New Year's Eve watching that shitshow on Sunday. And that is my choice -- no one has to be a fan in any way shape or form.

But it has absolutely changed over time. I can tell you from experience that when Memorial Stadium was the Largest Outdoor Insane Asylum, the Baltimore Colts were a fucking religion, not a 3-hour entertainment, for nearly all of their fans. In 1995, the Orioles topped three million fans for the first time -- with a losing record, and having not gone to the playoffs for twelve years. I was at the Ravens last home game in 2007 -- only ten years ago -- and it was packed, for a 4-11 team coming off nine straight losses.

They won that game, by the way, and I very much believe we fans had something to do with that. You don't get that experience from the movies, or from just supporting teams when things are going well.

[HotInHere]

Depends on how you want to look at it I suppose.
Having to kick out a big fee to have the right to buy the tickets is kind of bullshit but it's pretty much how most stadiums operate now, at least the newer ones built in the modern era I believe.
Not sure if all of them do it though.
The problem for some (like me right now) is that if you don't buy the season tickets every year you forfeit your seats and PSLs and no longer own the right to those seats as well as forfeiting the $$ you kicked out for the PSLs to begin with.

True, but if you've been there long enough, you can just walk away. My PSL was $1250, and I have been to about 130 games so far. So averaged out, that's less than $10/ticket surcharge that I paid if I walk away from my PSL with nothing tomorrow.

On the flipside, to usmccharles's question, if you play the investment right, it can pay off very well. My Dad paid $3500 each for four PSLs on the 44 yard line when the stadium opened. He moved to Florida six years later and sold them for $20,000 each. You won't make that in the stock market. (Of course, I doubt you'll make that in the PSL market anymore in this city.)

[flraven]

I was a season ticket holder and PSL owner since the beginning. The PSL was $750 (in Section 532). I sold it on Christmas Day 2012 for $1500. I was also lucky enough to get picked to buy tickets to Super Bowl XXXV in Tampa. My seat cost $35 in 1998, now its $99. My buddy who I sold the PSL to asks me each year whether I want to come up for a game. And as the years go by, I am less inclined because of the cost and the quality of play. I haven't been to a game in a few years. I attended every home game from 1996 until 2004 when I had to travel for work.

[Captain Offense]

They won that game, by the way, and I very much believe we fans had something to do with that. You don't get that experience from the movies, or from just supporting teams when things are going well.

You mean you don't yell, hoot and bang on the seat in the theater when Liam Neeson is getting ready to off the Bad Guy ?

My apologies to those who watched a movie in the same theater with me.

[cvilleRaven]

Fan attendance has been dropping since the end of 2012. Be it lack of star power (losing Ray and Reed hurt - no one will ever question that), lack of success (no home playoff games since 2012, only two playoff games of any kind since then), lack of watchable offense (scoring or not in the latter half of 2017, you knew if it was 3rd and long, the route would be short of the sticks and we'd be punting), London, schedule timing, whatever - there are always going to be as many reasons as there are empty seats.

Visiting fan attendance has been growing the last few seasons as well. M&T doesn't have the same intimidation factor to visiting teams it used to (Sunday was as loud as it has been all year, with less than half the seats occupied). That place used to shake. Now, it generally feels empty. Part of this, I think, has to do with the number of blown 4th quarter leads. Hopefully, that problem began its path to resolution on Monday.

There is no doubt the Ravens have their work cut out for them.