The Foundation of Development.

**PerpetuallyBored74** · 05-15-2017, 03:05 AM

It's impossible to say how much the coaching has impacted our offensive talent since we don't stack offensive talent through either the early rounds of the draft or FA.
We only do that for the defense.
And yet, our defenses continue to blow late leads, even large ones.
Given the talent the defense has had, to me that points to the coaching.

Yet, we keep the defensive coordinator and instead fire or lose the offensive ones, LOL.

**Raveninwoodlawn** · 05-15-2017, 05:43 AM

I respect John and everything he stands for. He was the right guy for the right time IMHO for when we hired him.

However, he does a terrible job with hiring coordinators. He's had a few good ones, but IMHO, he did a poor job of replacing them, and the ones that weren't very good, he takes a LONG time to replace them if he ever does. And since he's not a guy who developed his own system, it has led to the lack of identity and continuity on both sides of the ball.

I mean we've had the power Air Coryell, The zone blocking, play action WCO, and a very pass heavy WCO...all these different offensive systems. Then on defense we had the organized chaos of Rex, the extreme passiveness of Mattison, the balanced Pagano, and now prevent Pees. There is no continuity, whenever a coordinator leaves, we basically then have an entire new system on that side of the ball.

If he's let go soon, I think that would be a major reason for his downfall.

**sawraven1** · 05-15-2017, 08:11 AM

Originally Posted by ravens1991

This post hits perfectly on the frustration that we have had since Joe Flacco was a young player. It seems as if under Cameron we tried to establish the super star coaching line ups w/ Jim Zorn, Al Saunders for Joe Flacco third year in 2010. Flacco has his best year and we respond with firing Saunders and Zorn so Cameron gets more control despite Flacco cursing him out on the sideline in the playoffs. Flacco speaks his displeasure to the media about it and we still let a coach he likes go. It is frustrating because you see Brees, Manning, Brady are BFF with their OC and our QB had a lot of friction.

The thing that frustrates me the most regarding Flacco career is he is clearly a no huddle rhythm QB. The 4 games Joe had in his entire career in that offense w/ above average talent for that system he set playoff records. How do we respond? Make up a coaching spot to adjust the offense and trade his best weapon. That is one thing I will never understand. Why did we change that offense at all after the super bowl and why don't we keep a no huddle playbook around for the new OCs.

You are trying to use basic common sense to figure out those dumb ass decisions that Ozzie & Co made. Its beyond laughable when the Front office apoligists throw in your face well (Boldin wasn't worth 6 mill) Ozzie only wanted to pay him 5 mill. So we trade away Joes best weapon, a guy who states publicly he never wants to play for another team but we were able to sign Elvis Dumverill!.
Boldin was never about stats, his stats here in Baltimore were lower than Arizona or San Fran. He was about winning. Flacco was about winning.

Ozzie and Co took a Giant Shit all over that. Instead of continuing to build on the offense, try drafting another WR early, or a RB, or building the Oline better. After 2012 it immediately was about the defense.

I lost all respect for Ozzie & Co after trading away boldin. The following drafts and free agency periods is what opened my eyes to what is wrong with this team.

**HbgPARavenfan** · 05-15-2017, 08:12 AM

It kind of sucks when you look around the league and see successful OC and DC's stay with teams for years, and here we keep poor ones that no one else wants. Anyone with talent is out the door asap.

I dont like anything about Barbs, but perhaps this is a pay issue / Owner issue as well

**sawraven1** · 05-15-2017, 08:20 AM

Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn

I respect John and everything he stands for. He was the right guy for the right time IMHO for when we hired him.

However, he does a terrible job with hiring coordinators. He's had a few good ones, but IMHO, he did a poor job of replacing them, and the ones that weren't very good, he takes a LONG time to replace them if he ever does. And since he's not a guy who developed his own system, it has led to the lack of identity and continuity on both sides of the ball.

I mean we've had the power Air Coryell, The zone blocking, play action WCO, and a very pass heavy WCO...all these different offensive systems. Then on defense we had the organized chaos of Rex, the extreme passiveness of Mattison, the balanced Pagano, and now prevent Pees. There is no continuity, whenever a coordinator leaves, we basically then have an entire new system on that side of the ball.

If he's let go soon, I think that would be a major reason for his downfall.

Where I agree with you. Harbaughs biggest problem is his inability to find decent coordinators. I don't know how true it is, but its been discussed by local media and former players and General Managers that Harbaugh doesn't like hiring any new young hungry coordinators because he doesn't like anyone who will challenge him or possibly be his future replacement.

If any of that is true. I have zero respect for Harbaugh because that holds this team back. One of the only topics Ravens fans can normally agree on is we have had beyond lousy assistants for majority of his tenure.

Kubiak and Pagano, and Frazier were the best ones. Even Cam Cameron was better than what we have had here last few years.

Successful teams hold onto their good coordinators for the most part, yet we seem to lose one every time we hire a good one like the 3 I mentioned. We seem to get 1 year and BAM they are gone.

**Goode05** · 05-15-2017, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn

I respect John and everything he stands for. He was the right guy for the right time IMHO for when we hired him.

However, he does a terrible job with hiring coordinators. He's had a few good ones, but IMHO, he did a poor job of replacing them, and the ones that weren't very good, he takes a LONG time to replace them if he ever does. And since he's not a guy who developed his own system, it has led to the lack of identity and continuity on both sides of the ball.

I mean we've had the power Air Coryell, The zone blocking, play action WCO, and a very pass heavy WCO...all these different offensive systems. Then on defense we had the organized chaos of Rex, the extreme passiveness of Mattison, the balanced Pagano, and now prevent Pees. There is no continuity, whenever a coordinator leaves, we basically then have an entire new system on that side of the ball.

If he's let go soon, I think that would be a major reason for his downfall.

No to mention players acquired for the wrong systems i.e. Wallace and Perriman would be great Air coryell WRs. West coast not so much

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**The Excellector** · 05-15-2017, 05:27 PM

I look at what Marvin Lewis did in Cincinnati as an example of what John Harbaugh could have benefited from here. Marvin Lewis identified his QB and identified a system that suits his strengths. His entire offensive coaching staff was then brought up under that philosophy and scheme. Thus, when they lost an Offensive Coordinator, another was able to step in and they continued to run the same system, with occasional tweaks to the scheme based on the talent around Dalton. Lewis has also done the same defensively.

That is the one thing that Harbaugh never did for the offense and for Joe. It was always about running the ball. Ozzie identified the QB, but the system wasn't about Flacco. He was an afterthought to the rush offense. That is why Harbaugh has had continuity issues with his offensive coaching staff and I place blame with him, because it was his responsibility to identify that system and do the same. He did not and once the Hall of Famers aged, he began to pay the price for it. The one exception was when Gary Kubiak essentially demanded that he be given full control to bring in his own staff and do what he wants. Kubiak is a control freak like Cameron, but not as bad a communicator and an overall better play-caller.

**wickedsolo** · 05-15-2017, 10:21 PM

Originally Posted by The Excellector

I look at what Marvin Lewis did in Cincinnati as an example of what John Harbaugh could have benefited from here. Marvin Lewis identified his QB and identified a system that suits his strengths. His entire offensive coaching staff was then brought up under that philosophy and scheme. Thus, when they lost an Offensive Coordinator, another was able to step in and they continued to run the same system, with occasional tweaks to the scheme based on the talent around Dalton. Lewis has also done the same defensively.

That is the one thing that Harbaugh never did for the offense and for Joe. It was always about running the ball. Ozzie identified the QB, but the system wasn't about Flacco. He was an afterthought to the rush offense. That is why Harbaugh has had continuity issues with his offensive coaching staff and I place blame with him, because it was his responsibility to identify that system and do the same. He did not and once the Hall of Famers aged, he began to pay the price for it. The one exception was when Gary Kubiak essentially demanded that he be given full control to bring in his own staff and do what he wants. Kubiak is a control freak like Cameron, but not as bad a communicator and an overall better play-caller.

Yea, but you could also argue that Marvin Lewis has done Jack shit in Cinci. Yes, they're a good team, but their record should be much better considering the talent they have on both sides of the ball.

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**BcRaven** · 05-15-2017, 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by HbgPARavenfan

It kind of sucks when you look around the league and see successful OC and DC's stay with teams for years, and here we keep poor ones that no one else wants. Anyone with talent is out the door asap.

I dont like anything about Barbs, but perhaps this is a pay issue / Owner issue as well

Keep in mind the Ravens wanted to retain Chuck Pagano and Gary Kubiak, but Head Coaching jobs were offered to them... Bc

**BcRaven** · 05-15-2017, 10:30 PM

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

Yea, but you could also argue that Marvin Lewis has done Jack shit in Cinci. Yes, they're a good team, but their record should be much better considering the talent they have on both sides of the ball.

Including ZERO playoff wins in 14 years... Bc

**The Excellector** · 05-16-2017, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by wickedsolo

Yea, but you could also argue that Marvin Lewis has done Jack shit in Cinci. Yes, they're a good team, but their record should be much better considering the talent they have on both sides of the ball.

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I'm not talking about the entire package as a whole. I'm talking about that specific strategy.

**HbgPARavenfan** · 05-16-2017, 08:58 AM

Originally Posted by The Excellector

I'm not talking about the entire package as a whole. I'm talking about that specific strategy.

I think if our Head coach had previous experience as either a DC or OC, that we would have more of a consistent system.

Right now it feels like the only thing that has been consistent is a passive defense, but even with the same system in place, we often draft players who dont fit said system.

maybe the bigger disconnect is between Owner/Ozzie and Coach than it is from Coach to coordinators