Orlando shooting

[JAB1985]

This is a failure of the FBI and the intelligence community (are we seeing a pattern here?). It is not an indictment of the NRA or the 2nd Amendment.

Its both imo. you cant have the NRA making it harder to do simple things intelligence wise and not be part of the problem.

hell the ATF cant even use computers because of legislation the NRA successfully lobbied to get passed. Thats complete an utter BS and im not sure how that hurting the 2A or helping their cause anyway.

[filthflarnfilth]

I mean, there are sects of Christianity that have committed hateful acts of violence and terrorism (KKK comes to mind).

It's hard to combat radial <insert religious ideology here>.

There was nothing Christian about the KKK. This is a problem that can't be solved under a secular solution.

[wickedsolo]

There was nothing Christian about the KKK. This is a problem that can't be solved under a secular solution.

My point was the KKK at one time believed what they were doing was just and fell in line with their Christian beliefs. Obviously it was a perversion of religion, which is exactly what radical Islamists do.


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[JohnBKistler]

Its both imo. you cant have the NRA making it harder to do simple things intelligence wise and not be part of the problem.

hell the ATF cant even use computers because of legislation the NRA successfully lobbied to get passed. Thats complete an utter BS and im not sure how that hurting the 2A or helping their cause anyway.

The 9/11 report, which looked at all terror attacks up to and including 9/11 didn't mention a thing about increased gun control measures. Why? Because history has shown that attempting to limit Islamic terrorists' access to firearms has been completely ineffective. The 9/11 attackers used box cutters. Paris has some of the most restrictive gun laws on the planet. The Belgian attackers used explosives.

Obama's pivoting of this into a gun control issue is reckless and does nothing to protect Americans from Islamic terrorism.

[wickedsolo]

Its both imo. you cant have the NRA making it harder to do simple things intelligence wise and not be part of the problem.

hell the ATF cant even use computers because of legislation the NRA successfully lobbied to get passed. Thats complete an utter BS and im not sure how that hurting the 2A or helping their cause anyway.

Do you honestly believe that the NRA is ok with guys like Omar Mateen buying weapons? If you do, then there is no point discussing these things with you.

The NRA is opposed to legislation that impacts law abiding citizens and folks who generally follow the rules and responsibility of gun ownership (i.e. You and Me).

The NRA is NOT opposed to the FBI and the intelligence community doing their damn jobs and tagging these cats before this shit happens. As NC pointed out above, it wouldn't have mattered if he had guns or not. He had home made explosive devices. He was going to murder folks - the method didn't matter.

I love how people want to discuss common sense laws, but fail to see the true meaning of common sense in this situation. For the most part, I don't disagree with common sense gun legislation. In many states, it's a huge pain in the ass to buy a guy. I've been waiting on my HQL for a month now in Maryland - and I'm an honorably discharged vet with training on handling weapons and I've never been in any kind of legal trouble. I'm ok with the process, I wish it would move quicker, but I'm ok with it. Most gun owners are ok with it. What cracks me up is using the phrase "common sense gun legislation" when the most common sense application would be to actually APPLY the rule of law that currently exists!

Why wasn't this dude - or any known ISIS sympathizer - flagged, detained, etc?


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[wickedsolo]

The 9/11 report, which looked at all terror attacks up to and including 9/11 didn't mention a thing about increased gun control measures. Why? Because history has shown that attempting to limit Islamic terrorists' access to firearms has been completely ineffective. The 9/11 attackers used box cutters. Paris has some of the most restrictive gun laws on the planet. The Belgian attackers used explosives.

Obama's pivoting of this into a gun control issue is reckless and does nothing to protect Americans from Islamic terrorism.

Agreed.

You can go to many home goods stores and buy shit to make bombs. Hell, the tsarnaev d-bags did it with pressure cookers IIRC.

The FBI was tracking this guy. They probably knew he had weapons or was in the process of getting them. As soon as he got weapons, they should have been all over him.


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[BigPlayReceiver]

Obama had a point (the PBS special, right?), but he was also pretty off-base. Every state is different, but for the most part, you can't just go down to the store and buy an AR 15. Even in super gun-friendly states like Texas, there are still background checks and waiting periods. And clearly incredibly stringent gun laws, like in France, California or even in Chicago (as the gentleman on the PBS special stated) don't really seem to be much of a deterrent for attacks and violence.

No gun dealer anywhere in the country, regardless of what mainstream media tells you, is going to sell any kind of weapon to guys that pop up on the ATF/FBI list. In fact, if that dude had actually showed up on any kind of flagged database, the gun dealers would have had a responsibility to notify local law enforcement that he was trying to buy weapons. That didn't happen. None of that happened.

This is a failure of the FBI and the intelligence community (are we seeing a pattern here?). It is not an indictment of the NRA or the 2nd Amendment.

Good info Wicked. And adding to "the pattern", the following are true stories...

1) You can be on the No-Fly list (NFL) yet still legally purchase a fire-arm. As of late last year, there were about 64,000 folks on the NFL with about 6,400 of them being American citizens. Note: Someone can be on the NFL, legally purchase an arsenal, and board a fully-loaded Amtrak (400-500 passengers with nowhere to run) at any time.

2) From 2004-2014, there were people on the Terrorist Watchlist who were involved in firearm or explosives background checks 2,233 times. 91% of these transactions were allowed to proceed.

3) At least person that worked with Mateen was convinced that he was unstable and said that he was not surprised (that Mateen was the assailant) when he got word of the details surrounding the shooting.

4) The security company that Mateen worked for provides security staff for everything under the sun, and for every commercial industry and government sector across the globe...including nuclear facilities, train stations, seaports and airports. In terms of revenue, I believe that it's the wealthiest security apparatus on the planet.

5) I seldom type and walk, but George Will (who I've seen typing and walking three times now) and I almost ran into each other at Union station this morning. He's a very small man.


So let's leave ol' George Will out of this for the moment...pinning one, two or a multitude of domestic or foreign terrorist attacks on Bush, Obama, the Repubs or the Dems is a simple-minded knee-jerk.

This country has serious systemic problems that run pretty damn deep and the incumbent politicians that people just love to re-elect and the Power-Elites that directly and indirectly fund their campaigns aren't doing much to address them.

[wickedsolo]

Good info Wicked. And adding to "the pattern", the following are true stories...

1) You can be on the No-Fly list (NFL) yet still legally purchase a fire-arm. As of late last year, there were about 64,000 folks on the NFL with about 6,400 of them being American citizens. Note: Someone can be on the NFL, legally purchase an arsenal, and board a fully-loaded Amtrak (400-500 passengers with nowhere to run) at any time.

2) From 2004-2014, there were people on the Terrorist Watchlist who were involved in firearm or explosives background checks 2,233 times. 91% of these transactions were allowed to proceed.

3) At least person that worked with Mateen was convinced that he was unstable and said that he was not surprised (that Mateen was the assailant) when he got word of the details surrounding the shooting.

4) The security company that Mateen worked for provides security staff for everything under the sun, and for every commercial industry and government sector across the globe...including nuclear facilities, train stations, seaports and airports. In terms of revenue, I believe that it's the wealthiest security apparatus on the planet.

5) I seldom type and walk, but George Will (who I've seen typing and walking three times now) and I almost ran into each other at Union station this morning. He's a very small man.


So let's leave ol' George Will out of this for the moment...pinning one, two or a multitude of domestic or foreign terrorist attacks on Bush, Obama, the Repubs or the Dems is a simple-minded knee-jerk.

This country has serious systemic problems that run pretty damn deep and the incumbent politicians that people just love to re-elect and the Power-Elites that directly and indirectly fund their campaigns aren't doing much to address them.

Amen.

How the hell are folks that pop up on the NFL list able to go and buy weapons at all? Complete system breakdown. If you're a knucklehead and find yourself on the NFL, you should automatically be on the ATF/FBI database of people that can't legally purchase weapons. Period.

This is a security issue and while some may see it as a knee-jerk reaction, I see it as just being smart. If there is ample enough intelligence on someone to place them on a NFL list or to be placed on the FBI watch list, then there is enough intelligence on that person to restrict them from legally obtaining a fire arm.

[BigPlayReceiver]

3) At least person that worked with Mateen was convinced that he was unstable and said that he was not surprised (that Mateen was the assailant) when he got word of the details surrounding the shooting.

Addendum on the co-worker referenced above...

A co-worker at G4S, Daniel Gilroy, told Florida Today he worked the 7 a.m. to 3 p.m. shift at PGA Village in Port St. Lucie. Gilroy, a former police officer, said Mateen would then take over from 3 p.m. to 11 p.m.

Gilroy told the newspaper that Mateen “stalked” him, sending up to 15 messages a day and made racist and homophobic comments.

“I quit because everything he said was toxic,” Gilroy said, “and the company wouldn’t do anything. This guy was unhinged and unstable. He talked of killing people.”

With guidance from folks on YouTube, any mope can hack corporate email and sniff or snoop all day long, but the largest security firm in the world can't...won't police its own infrastructure? ...or at least run-down legitimate, serious complaints from its own personnel? Stunning.

[wickedsolo]

Addendum on the co-worker referenced above...





With guidance from folks on YouTube, any mope can hack corporate email and sniff or snoop all day long, but the largest security firm in the world can't...won't police its own infrastructure? ...or at least run-down legitimate, serious complaints from its own personnel? Stunning.

Like so many other violent acts...the evidence was there and in plain sight. No one did anything about it.

[blah3]

ignorance on religion is also apparently the problem.

No religion is to hate. christianity doesnt teach hate, but plenty of people use it to spread it. this "us vs them" generalizations is what creates terrorists and exactly why the current administration doesnt want to connect religion to a group of terrorists.

Sorry, no. Saying radical Islamists are terrorists does not create more radical islamists.

[NCRAVEN]

Amen.

How the hell are folks that pop up on the NFL list able to go and buy weapons at all? Complete system breakdown. If you're a knucklehead and find yourself on the NFL, you should automatically be on the ATF/FBI database of people that can't legally purchase weapons. Period.

This is a security issue and while some may see it as a knee-jerk reaction, I see it as just being smart. If there is ample enough intelligence on someone to place them on a NFL list or to be placed on the FBI watch list, then there is enough intelligence on that person to restrict them from legally obtaining a fire arm.

The problem with the NFL, I there is (as far as I know) no set criteria of how to get on it. You could be on it and not even know it.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...terrible-tool/