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  1. #349

    Re: All Things Draft:

    Something else...I like Walterfootball's list, but it combines everything...I liked PFT's list as it had only the list of guys who had private workouts or guys who just visited the facility...it didn't include the combine/senior bowl list which includes almost everybody.

    I think the max you can bring in is like 30 players.

    And I know it doesn't mean we are drafting those guys, but it does show some level of interest.

    But one thing I've noticed this year is that the team seems to have made an effort to not have the guys who come in to be publicized. Last year, Aaron and other beat guys were not only getting the names of guys who visit, but future dates of the visit.

    Now it just seems to be "player X 'visited' on date Y"...after the fact for basically all of them and there are seem to be a lot fewer names put out there.

    Maybe they were so disappointed in the way the draft went last year they are asking the their guys, players and agents not to put it out there as to tip off who they like.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.





  2. #350
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    Re: All Things Draft:

    I'm a little torn on Khaseem Greene. On one hand, his ball skills and drop ability are too good to put him in Ellerbe's spot. However, his instincts and vision are both lacking for Ray's spot.

    He has bad technique taking on blockers. He gets sideways way too much and even gets sideways sometimes in coverage. I think it's the hips, at least in coverage. However, at least he is willing to take on the blockers. It's not that he plays reactive, it's that his reaction time isn't as quick in the box. He could be taught up on the technique. He doesn't seem overly athletic sideline to sideline, compared to what posters have been touting (compared to guys like Minter and T'eo).

    I'm not sure which spot to put him in. I'm leaning toward Ellerbe's spot. He just doesn't have the vision or instincts for Ray's spot. I wouldn't be mad if the Ravens took him though.
    "Please take with you this final sword, The Excellector. I am praying that your journey will be guided by the light", Leon Shore





  3. #351

    Re: All Things Draft:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Excellector View Post
    I'm a little torn on Khaseem Greene. On one hand, his ball skills and drop ability are too good to put him in Ellerbe's spot. However, his instincts and vision are both lacking for Ray's spot.

    He has bad technique taking on blockers. He gets sideways way too much and even gets sideways sometimes in coverage. I think it's the hips, at least in coverage. However, at least he is willing to take on the blockers. It's not that he plays reactive, it's that his reaction time isn't as quick in the box. He could be taught up on the technique. He doesn't seem overly athletic sideline to sideline, compared to what posters have been touting (compared to guys like Minter and T'eo).

    I'm not sure which spot to put him in. I'm leaning toward Ellerbe's spot. He just doesn't have the vision or instincts for Ray's spot. I wouldn't be mad if the Ravens took him though.
    He can play a 3-4 and not be the big thumper...Daryl Washington and Lawrence Timmons aren't big guys who are there to take on blockers...they are similar to guys like Greene, Brown and Ogletree.

    I'm assuming that McClain or McClellan will be the "big" take on blockers LB.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.





  4. #352
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    Re: All Things Draft:

    It is alot easier to coach a LB to take on blocks and improve the run support aspect of your game, but you just cannot coach big average athletes to drop back into coverage and do well. More times than not, you can coach someone to be more physical, but you can't coach someone to be more athletic. That's why in this day and age, I always prefer to take the more athletic LB like Ogletree or Sio Moore or Arthur Brown over the big hard hitting one like Te'o. Its only really when he is so good and a can't miss type prospect like Cushing (who could cover really well coming out of college anyway) that you prefer him over a smaller athletic type of LB.

    Given Greene's talent level and athletic ability, I'm pretty sure a coaching staff like ours, who Are typically very good at getting the best out of linebackers, and arguably the best in the league at it, can teach Greene how to be an effective run defender. He already has the coverage ability. The same can be said about Arthur Brown, Ogletree (although, his character flaws may be give the coaches an issue in this department), Sio Moore, Kiko Alonso, etc...





  5. #353

    Re: All Things Draft:

    Quote Originally Posted by Raveninwoodlawn View Post
    He can play a 3-4 and not be the big thumper...Daryl Washington and Lawrence Timmons aren't big guys who are there to take on blockers...they are similar to guys like Greene, Brown and Ogletree.

    I'm assuming that McClain or McClellan will be the "big" take on blockers LB.
    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    It is alot easier to coach a LB to take on blocks and improve the run support aspect of your game, but you just cannot coach big average athletes to drop back into coverage and do well. More times than not, you can coach someone to be more physical, but you can't coach someone to be more athletic. That's why in this day and age, I always prefer to take the more athletic LB like Ogletree or Sio Moore or Arthur Brown over the big hard hitting one like Te'o. Its only really when he is so good and a can't miss type prospect like Cushing (who could cover really well coming out of college anyway) that you prefer him over a smaller athletic type of LB.

    Given Greene's talent level and athletic ability, I'm pretty sure a coaching staff like ours, who Are typically very good at getting the best out of linebackers, and arguably the best in the league at it, can teach Greene how to be an effective run defender. He already has the coverage ability. The same can be said about Arthur Brown, Ogletree (although, his character flaws may be give the coaches an issue in this department), Sio Moore, Kiko Alonso, etc...
    Excellent points from both of you guys. Greene is one of my favorite players in the draft and I think he'd be good at Ellerbe's WILL spot--he'll be good in space, in coverage, and as a blitzer, but will need to be protected somewhat in traffic. I think Bynes and McClellan will likely compete to be the MIKE of the future who thumps a little harder in traffic.





  6. #354
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    Re: All Things Draft:

    So in people's opinions here, which ILB's have the best potential to drop back and cover, if not right away but in the future? Here's my take on the top guys:

    - Minter is strictly a 2 down back. Not much upside to drop into coverage. Very solid in the box defender but not much else.
    - Te'o is better than Minter on covering though it remains to be seen if he is good enough. He did work on that aspect his senior year.
    - Ogletree has loads of potential here but at this point often takes a poor first step. Get him over that hump and he's gold.
    - Brown should also be gold. At this point he doesn't seem to have the confidence that he should have to drop and cover. But he has the physical skills, easily. So similar to Ogletree but in a different way- he also has a mental block than hopefully could be overcome.

    - Alonzo has potential between Te'o and Brown/Ogletree. He was asked to drop a lot at Oregon and came away with 4 INTs last season and a huge INT in the Rose Bowl the year before. Baited Russell Wilson in fact.
    - Greene should be decent in coverage but honestly I haven't seen enough of him to say that for sure.
    - Sio Moore has room to improve in coverage but has the potential to do so.
    - Reddick...what a puzzler. Seems like he has potential in coverage...?

    Your thoughts/corrections/observations?
    -
    Last edited by ursula; 04-05-2013 at 02:51 PM.





  7. #355
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    Re: All Things Draft:

    If we are talking strictly coverage:

    T'eo and Minter can handle zones and most RBs out of the backfield.
    Ogletree can handle everything
    Brown can handle a little bit of everything, if coached up.
    Greene can handle deeper zones
    Moore can eventually be coached to handle everything. I think his versatility in the box lent to him being used closer to the line of scrimmage, but he definitely has the athleticism to transition.
    "Please take with you this final sword, The Excellector. I am praying that your journey will be guided by the light", Leon Shore





  8. #356
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    Re: All Things Draft:

    Here is where I disagree with LeachisaBeast, but I think we are actually saying the same thing. I don't believe that you can teach the willingness to take on blockers and be more physical. I think you can teach technique to those who are willing to be more physical, thus displaying more physicality in the on-field results.

    This is something that I like about Greene, but don't like about Ogletree. Greene is willing. He just needs to be coached up on his technique. Ogletree just doesn't seem willing sometimes. He gives up on plays way too much for me to think that'll change in the Pros.
    "Please take with you this final sword, The Excellector. I am praying that your journey will be guided by the light", Leon Shore





  9. #357
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    Re: All Things Draft:

    From what I've seen of Ogletree, he's more physical than given credit for, and IMO is more physical than Greene. Ogletree was actually pretty good against Alabama unlike Te'o and Minter. Sure, there is a lot of coaching issues with Ogletree, he has just switched from playing safety, that explains why he may seem to shy away from the tackles at times. However, you have to think that Ogletree has the most upside out of all of these LBs because of his athletic ability, and the fact that he's played so well at the LB position in such a short time playing there.

    Also, I think the notion that Minter is only a 2 down LBer is way off. I'm not saying he's great in coverage, or that he's a great athlete. Go watch the tape, this guy is a tackling machine, he had something like 20 tackles against Florida and actually did a decent job at covering TEs and RBs in that game (Reed and Gillislee are pretty good players too btw). Also on third downs, you don't always have to drop both your 3-4 LBs into coverage every time, you can often blitz one of them up the middle and drop the other one back. I find it funny how some of the same people who claim that Minter is only a 2 down LB are the people who wanted Ellerbe back who just got paid like one of the best LBs in the game, yet his coverage skills are anything close to great.





  10. #358

    Re: All Things Draft:

    Quote Originally Posted by leachisabeast View Post
    From what I've seen of Ogletree, he's more physical than given credit for, and IMO is more physical than Greene. Ogletree was actually pretty good against Alabama unlike Te'o and Minter. Sure, there is a lot of coaching issues with Ogletree, he has just switched from playing safety, that explains why he may seem to shy away from the tackles at times. However, you have to think that Ogletree has the most upside out of all of these LBs because of his athletic ability, and the fact that he's played so well at the LB position in such a short time playing there.

    Also, I think the notion that Minter is only a 2 down LBer is way off. I'm not saying he's great in coverage, or that he's a great athlete. Go watch the tape, this guy is a tackling machine, he had something like 20 tackles against Florida and actually did a decent job at covering TEs and RBs in that game (Reed and Gillislee are pretty good players too btw). Also on third downs, you don't always have to drop both your 3-4 LBs into coverage every time, you can often blitz one of them up the middle and drop the other one back. I find it funny how some of the same people who claim that Minter is only a 2 down LB are the people who wanted Ellerbe back who just got paid like one of the best LBs in the game, yet his coverage skills are anything close to great.
    I agree with both points.

    I saw Ogletree absolutely STONE Lacy in the hole on the goal line in the SEC championship game...you don't stone that big boy if you aren't physical. I actually like Ogletree despite what some posters think here...I think he can do the job here.

    I also agree on Minter...I'm on record as saying that I'm not a big fan...I just like to have guys with a little higher ceiling than what I think he has. But I still think he will be a solid pro and is athletic enough to be on the field for all 3 downs.
    Although Walsh's system of offense can compensate for lack of talent; however, defense is a different story. According to Walsh, talent on defense was essential and could not be compensated for. What did Walsh do in 1981? He acquired physical and talented players on defense.





  11. #359
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    Re: All Things Draft:

    I just don't think that Ogletree, Te'o and Minter are worthy of a 1st round pick or even a top of the 2nd. We have to look at value and I think 3rd and 4th round for guys like Reddick and Alonso are way better value

    With our natural 2nd I'd take one of the 3 top guys, but no way in the top of the 2nd or 1st
    "Cause if you ain’t pissed off for greatness, that just means you’re okay with being mediocre, and ain’t no man in here okay with just basic.”
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  12. #360
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    Re: All Things Draft:

    I wouldn't pick Minter at 32, but I'd certainly consider him at 62, or somewhere in the 3rd round, could be a great value pick.

    Sio Moore is my favourite LB though right now.





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